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sudden onset aggressive behavour



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 2nd 07, 12:27 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
aapt news
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Posts: 1
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

Hi everyone,
This is my first post on a newsgroup and I'm fairly upset at the moment so
please forgive any boo boos on my part.

I have to 2 boxers. One is 11 years old (teah) and the other is almost 4
years old (holly).
Both are entire (yes I know!!) I am a registered breeder which I am letting
lapse because I can't afford to breed anymore.
Teah is my 'rock', she has been with me through thick and thin. Holly I got
at the age of 6 months.
She has always been very 'scatty'. Has growled and backed away from men
strangers. Once you get down on the floor with her and she starts to relax
she is fine. But if that person walks to go outside and then comes back in,
it starts all over again with the growl. Its like she has short term memory.
Its not a teeth gnarly growl, more like a deep rumble.
Over the last 12 mths teah and holly have had 2 fights. This was over her
thinking teah was getting to much attention.
Holly is very attached to me, she follows me everywhere and she needs hugs
and kisses all the time. She's a very sweet and loving girl.
However!!! Since sunday night (i was away in Sydney), she has attacked poor
teah 5 times now.
The last time was tonight, by mistake I didn't get teah out of the room
quick enough.
I have been trying to keep them seperate. Up until now, they have eaten
together, slept together and teah cleans hollys ears all the time.
But now....Teah just has to walk past holly now and she goes for her.
Poor Teah is messed up. She has rips all over her ears, her left eye and
the vet bills are killing me.
I love both of my dogs very very much. and I don't want to get rid of either
if I don't have to. But if I did, it would be Holly who would have to find
another home.
BUT.... does anyone have any ideas what might be going on here and if you
think it can be fixed??
I'm really short on funds but I will try anything I can as long as I have
the money for it.
Thanks for any serious answers and suggestions.
Comments like just have her put down I don't want.....thanks
Anyone know of a good behavour person?? I'm located in Canberra, Australia

Loz


  #2  
Old May 2nd 07, 12:55 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Shelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,103
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

aapt news wrote:

BUT.... does anyone have any ideas what might be going on here and if you
think it can be fixed??
I'm really short on funds but I will try anything I can as long as I have
the money for it.
Thanks for any serious answers and suggestions.
Comments like just have her put down I don't want.....thanks
Anyone know of a good behavour person?? I'm located in Canberra, Australia


Can't help you with finding a behaviorist, as I'm not in your part
of the world. You do need one, though, and ASAP!

In the meantime, you *have* to get these dogs separated. It's just
not fair for the older dog to be subjected to that sort of aggression.

For what it's worth, Boxers are notorious for same-sex aggression,
especially females. No way on earth would I have two Boxer bitches
under one roof. I adore the breed, but that's just asking for trouble.

Also, I sincerely hope you do not plan to breed the younger dog.
She is temperamentally unsound. I'm sure you adore her, but her
genes should not be passed down!

Other things to consider are the fact that your older girl is, well,
old. There may be health changes that you have not noticed that are
making the younger dog more aggressive toward her. If you haven't
already done so, I'd recommend getting a thorough physical for the
older dog.

Another thing to consider is that you are part of the problem.
Holly may be affectionate with you, but I get the impression that
she may be running the show. Giving her hugs and kisses--especially
when *she* solicits them--may feel good to you, but I guarantee you
that it is giving her the message that she is in charge.

When you find a trainer or behaviorist, please talk to them about
employing a NILIF-type plan, wherein Holly has to earn rewards like
food and affection. Your dogs need to know what is expected of
them, and they should understand that their behavior has
consequences--both good and bad. At the same time, you don't want
to force confrontations. Since NILIF is non-confrontational, it
strikes me as being well suited to your situation.

http://www.greyhoundlist.org/nothing_is_free.htm
http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html
http://www.cairnrescue.com/docs/NILIF.htm

Good luck! I hope you are able to resolve the problem.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
  #3  
Old May 2nd 07, 01:05 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Loz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

Hi Shelly,

I use to give her hugs and kisses everytime she wanted them. But I stopped
doing this over 14 mths ago.
Also, I am planning on getting her desexed. I have a contract with the
other breeder...but I am refusing to breed her.
So I may end up getting my arse kicked for desexing her, but thats just
tough!!
Teah has cancer. She has mastcell tumors that come up and we get them cut
out. We don't know if there are any deep inside that we don't know of,
there probably are.
She isn't showing any major signs that something serious is going on yet. I
am waiting for that. I did mention to my mother last night, what if this is
'fight of the fitest'.
I'm at witts end, I havnet stopped crying in 2 days.
I have the dogs seperated and I have made a promise to teah that holly will
NOT get to her again and I will stick to that!
She is a war zone at the moment. She doesn't leave my side.

Thanks for the suggestions I will look into them
Loz

"Shelly" wrote in message
t...
aapt news wrote:

BUT.... does anyone have any ideas what might be going on here and if you
think it can be fixed??
I'm really short on funds but I will try anything I can as long as I have
the money for it.
Thanks for any serious answers and suggestions.
Comments like just have her put down I don't want.....thanks
Anyone know of a good behavour person?? I'm located in Canberra,
Australia


Can't help you with finding a behaviorist, as I'm not in your part of the
world. You do need one, though, and ASAP!

In the meantime, you *have* to get these dogs separated. It's just not
fair for the older dog to be subjected to that sort of aggression.

For what it's worth, Boxers are notorious for same-sex aggression,
especially females. No way on earth would I have two Boxer bitches under
one roof. I adore the breed, but that's just asking for trouble.

Also, I sincerely hope you do not plan to breed the younger dog. She is
temperamentally unsound. I'm sure you adore her, but her genes should not
be passed down!

Other things to consider are the fact that your older girl is, well, old.
There may be health changes that you have not noticed that are making the
younger dog more aggressive toward her. If you haven't already done so,
I'd recommend getting a thorough physical for the older dog.

Another thing to consider is that you are part of the problem. Holly may
be affectionate with you, but I get the impression that she may be running
the show. Giving her hugs and kisses--especially when *she* solicits
them--may feel good to you, but I guarantee you that it is giving her the
message that she is in charge.

When you find a trainer or behaviorist, please talk to them about
employing a NILIF-type plan, wherein Holly has to earn rewards like food
and affection. Your dogs need to know what is expected of them, and they
should understand that their behavior has consequences--both good and bad.
At the same time, you don't want to force confrontations. Since NILIF is
non-confrontational, it strikes me as being well suited to your situation.

http://www.greyhoundlist.org/nothing_is_free.htm
http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/NILIF.html
http://www.cairnrescue.com/docs/NILIF.htm

Good luck! I hope you are able to resolve the problem.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)



  #4  
Old May 2nd 07, 01:33 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Shelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,103
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

Loz wrote:
Hi Shelly,

I use to give her hugs and kisses everytime she wanted them. But I stopped
doing this over 14 mths ago.


Good! You can still be affectionate with her, but have her earn
your attention. You can use this as an opportunity to work on quick
obedience drills. Practice whatever commands she knows, or teach
her new ones. When she complies, she gets your attention--a hug, a
kiss, an ear rub, or whatever.

Also, I am planning on getting her desexed. I have a contract with the
other breeder...but I am refusing to breed her.
So I may end up getting my arse kicked for desexing her, but thats just
tough!!


Thank you! That's what a *good* breeder does when one of their dogs
has an incorrect temperament. I hope Holly's breeder will not
penalize your for doing the right thing.

Teah has cancer. She has mastcell tumors that come up and we get them cut
out. We don't know if there are any deep inside that we don't know of,
there probably are.


I'm sorry. Cancer is common in the breed, but that doesn't make it
any easier to handle when it's your own dog who is suffering from it.

She isn't showing any major signs that something serious is going on yet. I
am waiting for that. I did mention to my mother last night, what if this is
'fight of the fitest'.


It could be. It's not unheard of for younger dogs to bully or
attack older dogs when they sense that the older dog is unwell.

I'm at witts end, I havnet stopped crying in 2 days.


I can imagine! You are in an awful position. I don't envy you one
little bit.

I have the dogs seperated and I have made a promise to teah that holly will
NOT get to her again and I will stick to that!


Good! As long as you can keep them separated until you can find a
trainer or behaviorist, things should be fine. Management of the
situation comes first, then training and/or behavior modification.

She is a war zone at the moment. She doesn't leave my side.


I'm sure she's upset both by what's happened and by the fact that
you are upset. If you can, try to find some activity Teah would
enjoy that you can do with just her. A walk to the park or a car
ride or something to get both of you out of the house so you can
*both* relax a bit. The same goes for Holly. Find routine, fun
activities that both of you will enjoy. Lowering your own stress
level will be good for the dogs, too. It's time consuming to work
with the dogs separately, but they need it. The sooner you can get
your stress level down and get everyone into a new routine, the better.

Thanks for the suggestions I will look into them


You're welcome!

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
  #5  
Old May 5th 07, 12:53 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Loz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

Hi Shelly

Thanks again!!

I have her booked in to be desexed on Wednesday. If I could afford to get
both done I would, but I can't right now.
I am being 'tougher' with her now. Making sure she does something before I
reward her with a kiss or cuddle. Such as making her sit first.
she's always been a really hard dog to train as she is highly strung and
hyper active. And I must admit I did put it in the to hard basket. As long
as she knew 'sit' I was happy. But now I'm regretting it!!!!

Will post again after the desexing.
I'll give it a week and I'm then going to get some greyhound muzzles for
both of them, so I can let them loose with no fear that they will hurt
eachother.
The vet has suggested this, so I can try and get her life back to normal and
do some hard training with her.
I am still looking for a home for her, as back up. Especially if all this
does nothing to help.


Thanks
Loz


  #6  
Old May 5th 07, 08:11 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 461
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

snip insane crossposting

Thanks again!!


I have her booked in to be desexed on Wednesday.


That's SHEER IDIOCY, loz.


Really? Why so, AssHowe?


ALL AGGRESSION IS FEAR.


Well, no. Try again!


ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.


Absolutely not. Try again!


Surgical sexual mutilation is inapupriate unnecessary veterinary
malpractice which has LITTLE EFFECT on aggression EXXXCEPT
to MAKE IT WORSE. There's other TESTS which should be done
PRYOR or rather, INSTEAD of, sexual surgical mutilation but ONLY
IF effective non physical behavior modification techniques FAIL:


Then, AssHowe, YOU adopt EVERY DOG BORN THAT WAS AN ACCIDENT! Until
you adopt them ALL, shut the **** up!

  #7  
Old May 6th 07, 05:28 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Loz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

Your a pure frigin arsehole for even suggesting that I mishandle my dogs!!

If you can't say anything nice, then don't say it AT ALL!!!!
I've only been on this newsgroup for only a little while now and I'm sick to
death of your childish, aggressive and down right rude behaviour to everyone
on here!!

I would like to see you actaully write to someone on here, without it being
a template that you just insert a different name on!
If anything or anyone on here is pathetic, ITS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

now bugger off, I didn't pull your chain to get all this **** dribbling out
in my direction!!




  #8  
Old May 6th 07, 09:46 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Judith Althouse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,020
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

Loz,
I am sorry about what has been going on at your household. I know
first hand how sad it is.
I have 4 dogs all rescues. Ages 15, 14, 3, and 3. They all arrived
at approx age 1 except for the last dog who was supposedly 2 when he
arrived.
I have no professional experience in sudden onset aggressive behavior
except for observing it first hand.
The 3rd dog was Jubal Early a Pit Bull mix. I was tentative about
introducing to the household right away because of health and questions
about behavior. I got him checked out, neutered, and a chip put in.
Everything was fine, he got along with my old Lab, Buck (neuterel male)
and my spayed female Lady for almost a year. NO trouble at all. He was
then 2.
Then the 4th street dog arrived another PBT named Jack. He was intact
at the time, still everything was fine.
Then out of the blue Jubal Early attacked Buck. I had noticed Buck
giving him "the look". No skin was broken because Buck's skin is like
leather, but it was scary. Not to mention it broke my heart. There was
another attack months later. Jubal on Buck again. I now keep them
totally seperated.
I contacted 2 PBT breeders and a local Dog Whisperer (the locals call
her that) at the suggestion of some from this group.
The PBT breeder said it was likely a case of dog aggression (any dog
any where). The other 2 I contacted said that they thought it was a
power struggle. Buck still struggling to stay on top as the Alpha dog
and Jubal Early trying to become the Alpha dog.
The other situation that is similar to yours is that Buck may be ill
with Cushing;s disease. That has been a recent consideration (before
the attack). That may have been a reason for attack IMO. If my dog
Jubal sensed weakness (illness) not to mention he is failing anyway.
Arthritic etc. Buck is 14. Jubal may have decided due to age and
illness he was taking over?? BTW Buck is a Lab mix.
It is odd because Jubal get's run up on the porch by the neighbor's
ittsy bitsy dogs. There never was/has been any trouble between Jack and
Jubal even before he was neutered or Jubal and any other dog, only Buck.
After observing them for over 2 years I am sure it is the Alpha dog
battle.
Sorry this is so long but I hope you will find it of interest. I know
I was starved for info when trouble began here.
Shelly gave you great info I read what she posted. She is up on
Boxers and dogs in general. I agree with what she said.
Please be careful. I do not think muzzles are guaranteed to save the
day. Since you have a dog that is ill to begin with and the attacks
have been so vicious, don't take a chance. I am glad you are spaying
your girl. I do not think it is going to resolve the problem. I hope I
am wrong.
I have chosen to work it out. Jubal is a smart dog and it has been a
joy to have him around. If Jubal and Jack were at each other I would
have to consider re-homing one of them. They are only 3. Since Buck is
14. I have decided to pamper Buck and Lady and crate Jubal when Buck is
around or put him outside.
So far, so good.
Please disregard the idiot with the stupid posts and keep us posted on
how it is going. I am interested in what happens because I can relate
to your situation and perhaps I can learn from it and because I care.
Keep in mind. I am just giving you my personal opinion. I am no dog
expert of any kind.
Sorry, this is so very long it is really for the OP. I hope it is of
help to Loz in some way.


Be Free.....Judy

  #9  
Old May 6th 07, 10:39 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Judith Althouse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,020
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour/Attn. Shelly

Shelly,
Thanks for sharing the posts about NILIF. I was familiar with that
training method, but I can never get enough of reading about anything
that interests me.
The 2nd posting you shared was written by someone named Lynda and she
had a troubled Akita named Gypsy. The end of the post indicated the dog
was euthanized ultimately even tho' the NILIF method worked at least to
some degree.
Do you happen to know what happened to Gypsy? Do you know why she was
euthanized? Just curious....
Thanks again for posting the info. It has given me renewed vigor
about NILIF.


Be Free.....Judy

  #10  
Old May 7th 07, 11:55 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Shelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,103
Default sudden onset aggressive behavour

Loz wrote:
Hi Shelly

Thanks again!!


You're welcome!

I have her booked in to be desexed on Wednesday. If I could afford to get
both done I would, but I can't right now.


Getting Holly desexed is the bigger priority, I would think. It may
not help with your immediate problems with aggression, but it will
keep her breeder from insisting that she be bred. Hopefully, that
would never happen, but just to be on the safe side, I would get her
spayed ASAP if she were my dog and I were in your position. Having
lived with a Boxer with some similar temperament problems, I see no
reason to pass them down.

I am being 'tougher' with her now. Making sure she does something before I
reward her with a kiss or cuddle. Such as making her sit first.
she's always been a really hard dog to train as she is highly strung and
hyper active.


I think I have Holly's twin here! Pig headed, high energy, and an
evil genius, too. She's also very sensitive, and shuts down easily,
so working with her can be a challenge.

And I must admit I did put it in the to hard basket. As long
as she knew 'sit' I was happy. But now I'm regretting it!!!!


You certainly aren't alone in that regard. Luckily, it's *never*
too late to start working with a dog.

Will post again after the desexing.


Please do!

I'll give it a week and I'm then going to get some greyhound muzzles for
both of them, so I can let them loose with no fear that they will hurt
eachother.


That may be a reasonable plan. I'd still keep them separated when
you can't supervise, though.

Other things to keep in mind are that a tired mind and body will
make for a less reactive dog. The more you can work with Holly
(multiple short sessions each day), and the more exercise you can
give her, the less likely she is to be interested in being snarky.

I am still looking for a home for her, as back up. Especially if all this
does nothing to help.


Hopefully it will not come to that, but I'm glad that you are
considering it. I do not envy you one little bit! You've got some
tough decisions to make, and a lot of work to do.

She would probably be fine as an only dog, *but* I'd be careful to
make sure she went to a home without smaller children. Dog
aggression is not the same thing as human aggression, but the sort
of resource guarding she seems to be doing *can* be refocused onto
humans, especially small ones.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
 




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