Yesterday, Helene and I took Lucky from the vet's where she was being
boarded at $20/day, and had made reservations for her to be boarded,
closer, at $25/day. On the way back, we stopped at the estate owned by a
friend "T" who had taken Muttley for a few days around January 1, before I
made the final decision to keep him as my own. "Luckily", he and his uncle
"G" were both there, and we introduced them to the dog. Of course, she was
a little scared at first, but she was OK after a little while. They agreed
to keep her, at least for a few days while we checked out other options. It
was encouraging to see that Lucky did not seem very aggressive toward
several of the many cats.

Helene and I had to leave, and T and G had some errands to attend to. I
returned about 2:30, and they were not back yet. I heard Lucky making some
soft whining and moaning noises, and found her locked in a dark garage.
When she heard me, she barked, and I let her out on an old chain leash and
choker chain that had been used for Muttley. She was happy to get out, and
we waited near the pool for about a half hour until T and G returned. She
still seemed afraid of them, while she was happy to lean against me and
give me occasional "dog kisses".

We installed a 40 foot aerial cable run between two large trees by a
gazebo, and she seemed happy enough to wander around and relax in the area
while we were there. However, when we went back to the house, she jumped
around and barked. They had to leave again, and I did also. I don't know if
they returned her to the garage or lrft her on the run.

Although I think T and G like the dog, and are willing to take good care of
her, I do not really think they are "dog people". While I was very happy to
give her hugs, letting her lick my hands and face, talking to her, and
praising her when she responded, I did not sense the same sort of affection
from either T or G. "T" seemed mostly interested in using her as a "deer
repellant", and although he will probably take her on three or four walks a
day, as he did with Muttley, I don't think she will ever be allowed in the
house where she might damage some of his priceless antiques and historic
woodwork, etc. "G", an older gentleman, did not seem to take much interest
in the dog. I think he is planning to build a doghouse for her. I am not
sure if they plan to keep her on the dog run day and night, or lock her in
the garage or tether her near the house (as they did with Muttley).

My friend "L", who originally introduced me to T and G, visited later, and
met Lucky. She let her off the dog run and walked her on the leash, but
said she pulled so hard she was difficult to control. She fancies herself a
dog trainer, and was able to get her to "sit", by forcing her into the
position. She was somewhat concerned when "T" went in the house to tend to
some business, and I think "G" also went elsewhere, leaving Lucky tethered
once again on the dog run. "L" had said previously that "G" was an
incredible animal trainer, having previously trained a fox and perhaps a
possum, but she now thinks he is not really a "dog person", which seemed
evident to me by his indifference and lack of attention. "T" seems to be
wrapped up in his own world, and although I think he will tend to her
physical needs, I really think he lacks the emotional affection that a dog
craves.

I think she will be OK for a few days. It will take some time to see if she
really is OK with their cats, or if she might hurt them. One of them is a
gentle young cat with cataracts and would probably be highly at risk. Lucky
seemed to ignore them at first, but later barked or growled at them when
they made a move. At least she is not as aggressive as Muttley was when he
was there. "T" said that there was one instance where one of his cats
"froze" as Muttley charged after her, and he was just barely able to hold
him back before he had a "furry lunch".

I'm not sure what to do. Helene is not much help, and told me I should
"just shoot her" if she again takes it on herself to rescue another dog. If
I could be certain to be able to keep Lucky with Muttley, I would consider
it, but I already have a lot on my plate and I don't need more "drama" in
my life. I know Jerry has told me what I should do, but I have not yet
tried his methods and it may do much more harm than good if I attempted
them incorrectly on a dog I don't know very well.

For now, though, I am somewhat concerned about having her tethered to the
dog run with the choker chain collar. Someone from FARM seconded my
suggestion of a harness, or at least a separate collar which could have her
information engraved on it so she could be identified and returned if she
got loose. Also, I don't know how much I should "take charge" of this
situation. I can tell myself that it was not my decision to attempt this
rescue, and try to feel good that I have done the best I can to help. But I
have already started to "bond" with this sweet dog, and I want to do what
is best for her, without getting myself in "over my head".

Paul and Muttley and (maybe) Lucky

In article ,
Paul E. Schoen wrote:
Also, I don't know how much I should "take charge" of this
situation.

I think that given your "incompetence" and the extent to
which you've failed to "train" Muttley over a considerable
period of time, "you" should "recognize" "your" limitations
"and" turn the dog "over" to a reputable rescue
"organization." "Thinking" that you'"re" the "only"
"person" who "can" care for "a" dog and that "the" "dog"
"will" be lost without "you" and taking "dogs" in beyond
your "ability" to provide care "and" "training" is what
hoarders "do." It's not enough to love a dog.

Between his inability to train his dog, his flitting from
method to method, his endless, endless excuses, and his
tendency towards hoarding, this guy is disturbingly like the
XY version of Leah. Sheesh.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
[nothing worth repeating]

It is obvious that you do not read for comprehension, but only for ways to
try to make yourself seem oh so perfect by attempting to belittle others.
It only proves that you are a "beatch". Bitch is much too good a word,
especially after having befriended a sweet female dog, whose disposition
even after years of mistreatment is orders of magnitude nicer than your
best attempt (ASSuming you even try).

I wish the solution to this situation were as easy as taking her to a
rescue. If you know of any place that is not overflowing with pooches
needing homes, if anyone is willing or able to take a larger dog, then
perhaps your infinitude of knowledge can provide it. Otherwise, just shut
your nasty, snarly mouth and behave like a well-trained human.

Paul, Muttley, and "Lucky to be nowhere near Melinda"

In article ,
Paul E. Schoen wrote:
It is obvious that you do not read for comprehension, but only for ways to
try to make yourself seem oh so perfect by attempting to belittle others.

I'm not belittling you, I'm describing your situation. You
haven't bothered to train your dog, you make endless
excuses, you flit from training method to training method,
and you're an incipient hoarder.

Some things are easy: if you want a trained dog, train your
dog. If you can't care for a dog, don't take it on. If you
don't want people discussing your screwups, don't describe
them in a public forum.

Kinda ironic, you sitting in judgment on whether or not
someone else is a "dog person." If you don't like it being
done to you, etc.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:38:14 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
wrote:

[...]
For now, though, I am somewhat concerned about having her tethered to the
dog run with the choker chain collar.

For just once in your miserable, pathetic, lazy, little life, Schoen,
get up off your big fat ass and do something right. Go over there and
remove that choke collar, you freakin' buffoon. Yes, do it tonight!

On the way over there, buy her a buckled collar (preferably with metal
hardware)...

http://www.gundogsupply.com/leatdogcol.html

if she's going to be on a cable rig.

You know the choke collar is dangerous, yet you're only "somewhat"
concerned?

Damn, you're a piece of work, Schoen.

spit

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Lawyers. spit
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archi...e_law_fir.html

Operation Arrowhead Ripper: Day One.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/...er-day-one.htm

The Return of Inspector Dan Rather:
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk...tings_alw.html

If boys do it, it's sexist, if girls do it, it's liberating.
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2007/06/...rls-do-it.html

Throw the bums out!
http://tammybruce.com/2007/06/congress_approval.php

Yo, Judith!
http://blogs.nypost.com/movies/archi...on_m.html#more
http://www.freemarketcure.com/
http://blog.nam.org/archives/2007/06/the_real_sicko.php
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/06/2...michael-moore/

Do you remember me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervaMPt4Ha0&eurl=

Harry Reid. "It's time for you to go!'
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.c...4B5D5BDB0E7D4A

You gotta be shittin' us, Harry, you sorry excuse for a human being.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rZdAB4V_j8&eurl=

Parent, grandparent, etc. of a boy? Get this book!
The Dangerous Book for Boys, by Conn & Hal Iggulden
http://www.dangerousbookforboys.com/

(Melinda Shore) wrote in news:f5jq10$9mm$1
@panix3.panix.com:

Between his inability to train his dog, his flitting from
method to method, his endless, endless excuses, and his
tendency towards hoarding, this guy is disturbingly like the
XY version of Leah. Sheesh.

I'll start praying now that he doesn't get it into his head to become a
professional trainner.

Paula

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Resea
wrote in message
oups.com...
HOWEDY Paul,

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
...
Yesterday, Helene and I took Lucky from the vet's
where she was being boarded at $20/day, and had
made reservations for her to be boarded, closer, at
$25/day. On the way back, we stopped at the estate
owned by a friend "T" who had taken Muttley for a
few days

snip

I know Jerry has told me what I should do, but
I have not yet tried his methods and it may do
much more harm than good if I attempted them
incorrectly on a dog I don't know very well.

No Paul, THAT'S the BEAUTIFUL part of my METHOD.
If you make a mistake THERE AIN'T NO HARM DONE.

For now, though, I am somewhat concerned
about having her tethered to the dog run with
the choker chain collar.

That's REAL dangerHOWES emotionally AND physically.

Someone from FARM seconded my suggestion
of a harness, or at least a separate collar which
could have her information engraved on it so
she could be identified and returned if she got
loose.

That's ABSURD. If she was on an apupriate tie
HOWET chain and had a flat buckle collar with
a chain choker as a back up she WON'T SLIP
OFF and get loose.

Also, I don't know how much I should
"take charge" of this situation.

While T & G seem like nicy guys they're
probably not the beast of dog caretakers.

I can tell myself that it was not my decision to
attempt this rescue, and try to feel good that I
have done the best I can to help.

I'll be eager to loan you a gun to shoot HELLen.

But I have already started to "bond" with this
sweet dog, and I want to do what is best for
her, without getting myself in "over my head".

I've told you that you're WELCOME to phone me
ANY time @ 407-425-5092 and I'll talk you through
ANY training situation.

Paul, if you've got a head set for your cellphone set it up
and get yourself equipped with a six foot leash, a flat buckle
collar, a 15-20 foot leash or line, four cans with some pennies
rocks or washers in them, crushed square and taped on top.
If you don't have room in your pockets for every thing put them
in a small shopping bag with handles and put that through your
belt and call me.

We'll take Muttley through a few brief EXXXORCISES teaching
him to always pay attention to you with WON eye and WON ear,
to walk on lead withHOWET pulling, to heel when asked and
come instantly when called and then we'll do the same with
Lucky and THEN we'll bring them together in your HOWES and
make them good pals.

Paul and Muttley and (maybe) Lucky

OK, that seems like an offer I can't refuse. First I will see to it that
Lucky gets a flat buckle collar, with the choker as backup, ASAP. I'm
learning more about these two guys and it seems that perhaps neither one
actually owned or trained a dog. Their old dog that died was apparently
owned and trained by a friend. So my gut feeling, that this might not be
really a good place for Lucky, may well be true. I'll fine tune my
observation when I visit them again to put a flat collar on her.

I'll get a headset for my cell phone, obtain the recommended equipment, and
give you a call next week. I'll also review the portions of the manual that
deal with the issues, and we'll see how it works with Muttley. Then we'll
discuss the possibility of introducing Lucky into my home with Muttley.
He'd probably like a girlfriend again. He was in the company of a pregnant
Rottie when he and she were taken by animal control, and he was really
happy to see her again when he was briefly reunited with her. Then they got
into separate rescue programs and he will never see her again. Maybe he'll
"get Lucky"! Maybe I'll run a singles club for dogs

Thanks for offering some specific and helpful advice.

Paul and Muttley

Paul E. Schoen wrote:

For now, though, I am somewhat concerned about having her tethered to the
dog run with the choker chain collar.

Ummm, Paul, you need to be more than "somewhat" concerned if
she's tethered and wearing a choke collar. She could easily get
strangled. What if she wraps her tether around one of the trees
and can't figure out to go back the other way?

Go out and buy her a harness and bring it to her ASAP! Tomorrow,
find her an appropriate situation, even if it takes all day. The
people who are taking care of her are clearly careless and clueless.

IMHO.

FurPaw

--
The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.

To reply, unleash the dog.

"Terri" wrote in message
...
"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in
:


For now, though, I am somewhat concerned about having her tethered to
the dog run with the choker chain collar.

Oh. My.
Did I ever tell you the story of some former neighbors who had
their dog (Great Dane) tethered on a choke chain?
It was on the front porch, just a few steps away from the
living quarters. She'd be fairly safe and they could hear if
she got into something, right?
One day, while they were at home their dog was awfully quiet.
When they went to investiage they found she'd gotten tangled up somehow.
Unfortunately they couldn't hear her gagging or gasping or whining
because
the choke collar cut her air off before she choked herself to death.

Please please please take the choke collar off the dog no matter
which way you choose to confine her.
The only time a choke collar should be used is when *you* are
on the other end of the leash that's attached to it.


I will take care of this today (Sunday). My experience with the choker
chain on Muttley may have been just fortunate, because he was tethered with
it outside for many hours with no problems while I was away at work, or
when I wanted to have time with my cat Photon. I think the choker chain was
supplied by my friend Helene, and she seemed to have no problem with what I
was doing. I guess I never made any mention about it when first posting
here about a year ago, so that may be why it never seemed to be such an
issue.

My greatest fear was that Muttley might get loose and be hit by a car on
the busy road in front of my house, so ensuring his captivity was most
important. However, he still managed somehow to get loose from the tether
on several occasions, and he did cross the road to my neighbor's, but he
never actually "ran away" or got lost, or caused any damage that I know of.

In the case of Lucky, on Wednesday, my role was originally just supposed to
be as an assistant in providing transportation from the Pound to another
place where she could be kept safely until she could be taken care of by a
rescue. However, she would probably have escaped from the fenced area
there, and my friend Helene made the decision to have her boarded until we
could come up with something better. It is difficult for me to determine
when I need to step in and take charge of a situation that is supposedly
being handled by others. But when I called her Thursday night, and she had
not even talked to the vet or made other arrangements, I knew I needed to
step in and take some initiative. It is hard for me to intervene in a
situation like this, to make decisions and try to impose my will on someone
I respect and assume has more experience and knowledge, but that is what I
had to do.

Hopefully Lucky will survive her trial placement where she is now, and I
will see to it that she is more safely tethered to the dog run. I will also
probably need to find out if she is being left there all night, or kept
locked in the garage at night or when her caretakers are away. Neither one
is really acceptable as a long term solution, especially if they have no
intentions of ever allowing her even partial indoor access. Even worse, I
think, is the apparent lack of real affection for the dog. Just as with
Muttley, and while I was with Lucky, I was sure to give her nearly constant
attention and reassurance in a new situation, until she relaxed and was
able to lie down quietly or roll over or be playful. It will be interesting
to see if she has started to bond with her potential new owners, or if she
reacts more positively toward me.

Thanks for your concern, and I will do my best to make sure she is
reasonably safe and well cared for. It's beginning to look like I may
become a two-dog owner.

Hopefully Jerry's methods will be successful in training both dogs, and
getting them to be pals. Otherwise, I would like to know if the two dogs
should be introduced in a neutral area (like a park), or if Muttley could
visit her at her present home, or if she could be brought here. I just
don't want to have to break up a dogfight between two large dogs, without
expert assistance.

Paul and Muttley.

"Handsome Jack Morrison" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:38:14 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
wrote:

[...]
For now, though, I am somewhat concerned about having her tethered to the
dog run with the choker chain collar.

[snip typically childish verbal abuse]

On the way over there, buy her a buckled collar (preferably with metal
hardware)...

http://www.gundogsupply.com/leatdogcol.html

if she's going to be on a cable rig.


Thanks for the link; they look like nice collars for a good price. I'll get
a collar for her today. It might be better to keep the choke chain as a
backup, but I'll rig it so that it has limited choke, which should be safe
enough.

I also have a harness that I bought for Muttley, which I used when I took
him on the KOA Kamping trip, but he was able to pop the plastic snaps, so I
don't think it is secure enough. Maybe it's defective. If I can fix it,
that might be the safest option.

Paul and Muttley