Saw this ad:
http://www.usfreeads.com/116206-cls.html
What is the story behind this - is it common, a "sport", or something that
happens but is usually kept out of the spotlight? What colors can hide black?

Jana

(BonnieTheCollie) wrote in
:

http://www.usfreeads.com/116206-cls.html
What is the story behind this - is it common, a "sport", or something
that happens but is usually kept out of the spotlight? What colors can
hide black?

A couple of possible explanations:

1. Very dark brindle.
Darkest (most stripes, least base color) brindle Boxers are called "black
brindles" and they really can look true black at first sight, but some
slices of yellow are still slways visible if you look hard enough. This dog
in the pic looks too solid black to be a brindle, so this explanation
doesn't work here.

2. Recessive black.
Recessive black is a pattern, which is supposed to be caused by the most
recessive gene of the A locus, and so ALL other A locus alleles can hide
it. All normal Boxers are (AyAy) sables, and two heterozygous (Aya) sables
can get a (aa) rec. black pup if rec black gene is in the breed gene pool.
But there has never been any reports of that gene in Boxers. It is
(officially) found from only a handful of breeds: GSD, Sheltie, Lapponian
Herder and Swedish Vallhund. It is most probably also found from Belgian
Shepherds, Finnish Lapphunds and German spitzes.

3. Dominant black
That's the most common type of black in dogs, and the gene was found in
Boxers when the breed was still very young. The original Boxer forefathers
were not black, but a cross was done (with a Schnauzer, perhaps?) very
early and black color gene was introduced to one bloodline. The breed club
soon decided that black isn't an accepted color, and black dogs were culled
from breeding program after that. As the gene is dominant, it disappeared
in one dog generation and there hasn't since been black Boxers in Europe.
But this gene has to be the answer to this dog's color, and that gives
three possibilities:

3a. One of the early black Boxers was exported to America, and that
bloodline is still alive there. As every black Boxer should have at least
one black parent, that can easily be proven by doing a thorough pedigree
research.

3b. There was an oops! litter in one back yard, but the pups were
registered anyway and the dominant black gene in this bloodline is a gift
from that black mutt who lived behind that too low garden fence.

3c. There has happened a mutation, and a k gene has mutated into K dominant
black gene in one Boxer. Mutations do happen, but they are rather rare and
there are no known cases of this mutation. DNA testing the first black pup
and its parent would have been needed.

Liisa

"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message
..
But this gene has to be the answer to this dog's color, and that gives
three possibilities:

3a. One of the early black Boxers was exported to America, and that
bloodline is still alive there. As every black Boxer should have at least
one black parent, that can easily be proven by doing a thorough pedigree
research.

3b. There was an oops! litter in one back yard, but the pups were
registered anyway and the dominant black gene in this bloodline is a gift
from that black mutt who lived behind that too low garden fence.

3c. There has happened a mutation, and a k gene has mutated into K
dominant
black gene in one Boxer. Mutations do happen, but they are rather rare and
there are no known cases of this mutation. DNA testing the first black pup
and its parent would have been needed.

fascinating Liisa, may you be healthy so that you can continue to share your
wisdom with us.


this dog is beautiful.

He may have come out of these reverse brindle lines. I love these dogs.
We've had 2 flashy black (reverse brindle) boxers in rescue. One you cannot
see the brindle anywhere and the other only shows a very faint line of
brindle on one rear leg.

http://www.kenonboxers.com/

--
Tara

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:45:13 -0400, "Tara O."
wrote:

He may have come out of these reverse brindle lines. I love these dogs.
We've had 2 flashy black (reverse brindle) boxers in rescue. One you cannot
see the brindle anywhere and the other only shows a very faint line of
brindle on one rear leg.

harriet has the opposite "problem." she looks fawn, but she's got a
black stripe on the back of each rear leg and if you look *really*
closely in the right light, you can see extremely faint brindling across
her sides. little weirdo G.

http://www.kenonboxers.com/

beautiful dogs! too much flash for my personal tastes, but i love the
ripply look of reverse brindle.

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott & harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

First, let me make it very clear, poor people aren't necessarily
killers. Just because you happen to be not rich doesn't mean you're
willing to kill.
-- George W. Bush, Washington DC 5/19/2003

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 04:52:44 +0000 (UTC), Liisa Sarakontu
wrote:

A couple of possible explanations:

thank you, Liisa! the topic of black Boxers is something that can end
up in, ahem, "spirited" debate (lots of "that's impossible" vs. "but
i've seen them" with very little worthwhile information exchanged). i
appreciate your taking the time to give some reasonable theories.

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott & harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

We need an energy bill that encourages consumption.
-- George W. Bush, Trenton NJ 9/23/2002

Liisa Sarakontu wrote:

(BonnieTheCollie) wrote in
:

http://www.usfreeads.com/116206-cls.html
What is the story behind this - is it common, a "sport", or something
that happens but is usually kept out of the spotlight? What colors can
hide black?

A couple of possible explanations:

I just read an article about crosses made in the UK between Boxers and
another breed--a "naturally docked" breed, but I can't remember what
it was! Supposedly they got good Boxer type back within three generations,
with a proportion of puppies born with short tails, and it's been enough
generations that the line is eligible for registration with the KC.
Seems a recessive color could easily sneak in with this kind of cross.

Amy dAhl

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:59:08 GMT, Amy Dahl
wrote:

I just read an article about crosses made in the UK between Boxers and
another breed--a "naturally docked" breed, but I can't remember what
it was! Supposedly they got good Boxer type back within three generations,
with a proportion of puppies born with short tails, and it's been enough
generations that the line is eligible for registration with the KC.
Seems a recessive color could easily sneak in with this kind of cross.

yep! Pem Corgis, believe it or not. there was a series on the subject
in Boxer Underground, along with interviews with the breeder. we talked
about it here a few months ago. since personality is such a huge part
of the Boxer make-up, i mentioned being concerned with crossing to such
a vastly different breed. i got an e-mail from a European natural
bob-tail breeder who'd seen the thread, along with links to their
website, stating that years after the bob-tail experiment was begun,
they've seen no personality changes from the Corgi genes. if anyone's
interested, i'd be happy to repost links to the Boxer Underground series
along with the link to the website of the breeder who contacted me.

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott & harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

See, we love--we love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They
hate things; we love things. They act out of hatred; we don't seek
revenge, we seek justice out of love.
-- George W. Bush, Oklahoma City 8/29/2002

Amy Dahl wrote in
:

I just read an article about crosses made in the UK between Boxers and
another breed--a "naturally docked" breed, but I can't remember what
it was! Supposedly they got good Boxer type back within three
generations,

I have seen pics of these Pembroke Corgi x Boxer crosses. 1st gen looked
just like a weird mutt, 2nd gen had at least one bitch was surprisingly
Boxer-looking, 3rd gen looked like slightly non-standard Boxers and from
4th generation there have been show-quality dogs. 4th gen dogs, or at least
some of them, have been registered normally as Boxers and they have
offspring at least in UK, Norway, Finland and Italy.

with a proportion of puppies born with short tails,

Natural bobtail is caused by a simple dominant gene, so you can expect to
have about 50 % bobtail and 50 % normal pups when one parent is bobtail.

Seems a recessive color could easily sneak in with this
kind of cross.

Pembroke Corgis are normally sable just like Boxers, but they have tanpoint
and saddle patterns too. The dog used for the original cross was sable and
I guess that Cattanach tried to find a homozygous sable and not a tanpoint
or saddle carrier.

Here is one link to Cattanach's bobtail Boxers:
http://www.boxerunderground.com/1998...98/bobtail.htm

Liisa

Liisa Sarakontu wrote in
:

Pembroke Corgis are normally sable just like Boxers, but they have
tanpoint and saddle patterns too. The dog used for the original cross
was sable and I guess that Cattanach tried to find a homozygous sable
and not a tanpoint or saddle carrier.

Do you mean to say that they *can* be sable? Or is the red and white
color a modification of sable? Sable happens to be my favorite color in
Pemmies--I have a show-hopeful bitch who is a red-headed tricolor with
some sabling on her head. Her dad was a sable and her mom was a red-
headed tri which I think you would call a saddle pattern. June (my puppy)
doesn't have the saddle pattern.

--
-Abby

Pems, Aussie, and a Pug

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