I know a woman who is a BYB. She sells toy poodles to pet homes for money.
But she does it quite well. She has a very good contract in which the dog
must be returned to her if anything should go wrong with its current home.
She DOES take those dogs back and rehome or keep them. She screens her
homes very strictly and does HOME VISITS. In her last litter there was a
puppy who had something very seriously wrong with it. she spent a couple of
grand to fix him and kept him.

i can't decide if she's the enemy or ok. Maybe she's in between.

"BethInAK" wrote:

I know a woman who is a BYB. She sells toy poodles to pet homes for money.

Erm..... does anybody sell dogs for something other than money? :-)



i can't decide if she's the enemy or ok. Maybe she's in between.

My opinion on this matter isn't popular on this group, so I rarely voice
it - however, I see little or nothing wrong with this sort of breeding. The
fact that somebody doesn't show their dogs, and sells puppies to people who
simply wants nice family pets, does NOT make them bad breeders, "enemies",
or anything of the kind.

And don't get me started on my opinion of the notion that winning in the
breed ring makes for "quality dogs".

"sionnach" wrote in message
...

And don't get me started on my opinion of the notion that winning in the
breed ring makes for "quality dogs".

I agree. I have known a couple-three winning show dogs that shouldn't have
been bred. One with temperament problems, and one with atypical breeding
problems.

flick 100785

"sionnach" wrote in message
...

"BethInAK" wrote:

I know a woman who is a BYB. She sells toy poodles to pet homes for
money.

Erm..... does anybody sell dogs for something other than money? :-)

actually yes. Some breeders do things like coownerships where they "sell"
the dog for the titles it will get with its other owner.

i can't decide if she's the enemy or ok. Maybe she's in between.

My opinion on this matter isn't popular on this group, so I rarely voice
it - however, I see little or nothing wrong with this sort of breeding.
The fact that somebody doesn't show their dogs, and sells puppies to
people who simply wants nice family pets, does NOT make them bad breeders,
"enemies", or anything of the kind.

I remember this discussion a long time ago about breeding for quality pets.
I wasn't sure how I felt at the time but I think this woman has convinced me
that there is nothing wrong with what she does. I mean, she takes care of
the animals she brings into this world and makes pets that people love.


And don't get me started on my opinion of the notion that winning in the
breed ring makes for "quality dogs".

I can certainly agree with this.

BethInAK wrote:

I know a woman who is a BYB. She sells toy poodles to pet homes for money.
But she does it quite well. She has a very good contract in which the
dog must be returned to her if anything should go wrong with its current
home. She DOES take those dogs back and rehome or keep them. She
screens her homes very strictly and does HOME VISITS. In her last
litter there was a puppy who had something very seriously wrong with
it. she spent a couple of grand to fix him and kept him.

i can't decide if she's the enemy or ok. Maybe she's in between.

I guess my only question would be whether or not she tests her poodles
for genetic disease. If she doesn't, IMO she's a bad breeder. If she
does, then as long as she's not producing defective temperaments or
structure, then I wouldn't think she was so bad.

Robin Nuttall wrote:

I guess my only question would be whether or not she tests her poodles
for genetic disease. If she doesn't, IMO she's a bad breeder. If she
does, then as long as she's not producing defective temperaments or
structure, then I wouldn't think she was so bad.

Robin, this is terribly over-simplistic and I think you know it :-).
Having a dog that is clear of hip & elbow dysplasia, cardiac problems,
inherited eye disorders etc. is a necessary precondition for responsible
breeding. However, it is not at all the whole story; in-depth knowledge
of the pedigree is also necessary - in part because not all inherited
problems have screening tests; in part because (as an example) a dog
with normal hip xrays but with a pedigree laden with dysplastic dogs
is likely to throw dysplastic puppies. And that is where every would-be
"responsible BYB" I have ever known has fallen short; they are either
too lazy or (more likely) have no idea how to come by that vitally
necessary information.

You and I have known each other for over a decade now and I am VERY
well-aware of how well you know your breed, just as I know my breed;
we have discussed the fact that Dog X produced dozens of offspring
with heart problems, and Dog Y more than her share of dysplastic pups;
Dog Z was well-known for offspring that seizured, and so on. You and
I have this knowledge because these dogs were either champions or for
other reasons well-known within our respective breeds. But who keeps
track of information on the production records of dogs in a pet breeding
program?

Here's a story I think I've told you before but it's worth sharing
again. I had a friend who had a REALLY lovely bitch with the best
temperament I'd ever seen in her breed (not my breed, but one I knew
well enough to have an educated opinion about). My friend wasn't at
all interested in showing or competition, but I knew she had vague
plans of breeding her someday - and with my full approval. As I
said, this was a stellar bitch with genes that IMHO *needed* to
be passed on.

So I wasn't at all surprised when she called me up one day and said
"I'm breeding Molly!!!" (names have been changed here to protect the
not-so-innocent). The thing that horrified me, though, was when she
told me the name of the dog she planned to breed Molly to: it was a
dog I'd had a chance to see several times over the years and even
though he was a champion with performance titles and all his health
clearances he was NOT a dog I personally ever would've touched with
a ten-foot pole. (I'm deliberately keeping things vague here because
the details are NOT important. The moral of this story is in the
consequences of my friend's decision, as you'll see.)

I went over to her place so we could discuss her plans in more
detail and it turned out to be a most unpleasant afternoon for
both of us. She showed me the pedigrees and crowed, "See? This is
a line-breeding on Ch. So-and-So, who was a Best In Show winner!"
And I asked, "Well, what was his temperament like? What did he
produce?" To which she could only answer "Well, Molly's breeder
AND the stud dog owner both think this is a good breeding." Because
the truth was, she didn't know. And the more detailed my questions
got, the more defensive SHE got. The thing was - as, I said, as is
typically the case with BYBs - she loved the idea of a basket full
of fluffy puppies to play with, but was too damn lazy to do the
research she should've.

Well, I'll cut to the chase. The breeding resulted in 5 puppies.
One had entropion - a relatively mild inherited eye problem that
nonetheless would've resulted in blindness had the puppy not
had surgery to correct it.

And that was the best-case outcome.

The worst was that three of the five died very young from a really
heartbreaking inherited disorder. I read an account from the owner
of one of the three; she truly, truly loved her dog and it's obvious
that having to witness his slow, painful death was one of the worst
experiences of her entire life.

And the fifth puppy? She had one of the worst temperaments I've
ever seen in any breed. To be honest, had this puppy been born
to a litter I'd bred myself, I would have seriously considered
euthanasia because the puppy was horribly afraid of EVERYTHING,
to the point where life itself seemed intolerably painful to
her. It was truly a case where it seemed like death could
potentially be a merciful alternative to what seemed like an
inevitably a miserable life.

This last puppy was taken back by the stud dog owner, somehow
(in spite of her temperament) managed to finish her championship
- and was bred. The majority of the puppies in the litter she
produced had epilepsy. (And yes, I am VERY well-aware that this
is the exactly the kind of thing that gives breeders-that-show
a bad name. Don't get me started.)

In short: at the beginning there was a wonderful bitch and a
well-meaning owner with holes in her knowledge that she didn't
want to acknowledge. And at the end was unimaginable amounts of
pain and heartbreak for the people unfortunate enough to live
with and love her descendents.

And incidents like that one, I'm afraid, are the foundation of
my cynicism towards the idea of "responsible BYBing".

JFWIW,

Dianne

(null) wrote:
Robin Nuttall wrote:

I guess my only question would be whether or not she tests her poodles
for genetic disease. If she doesn't, IMO she's a bad breeder. If she
does, then as long as she's not producing defective temperaments or
structure, then I wouldn't think she was so bad.


Robin, this is terribly over-simplistic and I think you know it :-).

Sure I know it snip excellent post about the importance of knowing
lines in breeds

However. As much as you, I, and many of the other people who are
passionate about dogs and our breeds hate to say it, pet breeding is
going to happen.

I've come to realize in my old age that no matter what we do, it's going
to happen. And that's the way it is. How many litters have you produced
in your lifetime Dianne? I've produced two, for 5 live puppies. In 25
years. Guess what. The demand for purebred dogs is just a teeny bit
bigger than you, I, and all of the rest of the few truly responsible
breeders can cope with. It sucks, but that's the way it is. We will
NEVER produce enough puppies to meet the demand, and the demand isn't
going to magically stop because we frown and tut-tut and say, "oh, you
shouldn't do that."

There is no solution where only responsible breeders breed dogs. Not in
the real world. So if somebody is breeding pets, which frankly I'd sure
rather they not do, then caring for them, taking them back at any stage,
and knowing at least health pedigree on the parents is way above what
most of the idiots do. Do I want that person to breed? Not really. But
it's going to happen...