Subject: Using Psycho 201 Language Correctly
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 12:03:56 -0500

Since the language of behavior modification was fairly well
established by 1950 or so, trying to change definitions is just
sophomoric games. Get a decent psych text before you start writing
about reward/punishment, and especially about aversion/relief of
aversion/and negative reinforcement.

Positive reinforcement = unconditional reward (something the doggy
already likes and doesn't need training to like). If you follow
something innocuous IMMEDIATELY with something very positive (a soft
sound with a shot of beef juice) the initially meaningless event will
become rewarding and can be used in the place of the unconditioned
reinforcement.

negative reinforcment = no response.

Aversive reinforcement = punishment

Relief of Aversion =
stopping an ongoing aversion (continual shock, loud noise, pricker,
etc)

Any stimulus can be conditioned (learned) to be a positive
reinforcement so long as it is not a strong aversive (and some fairly
strong aversives can be associated with strong reinforcers so that
they become positively reinforcing; but this association has to be
fairly continually reinforced).

There are many complications to using reward/punishment. Pavlov
demonstrated
that you could make dogs completely psychotic simply by following
certain schedules.

To my fairly certain knowledge the only population of humans who
condition more
readily and firmly to aversion are schizophrenics, indeed, its one way
to diagnose
the condition.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

From: Jerry Howe
To: Dr. von Hilsheimer
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 10:56 PM
Subject: More Meshugas!

HOWEDY Dr. Von,

I can't even begin to make hide nor hare HOWETA THIS:

*(Oh, bye the bye, robin has CRIPPLED TWO
of her own dogs jerkin an chokin them to make them heel an STILL can't
make WON
of 'em heel despite her prong and shock
collars!)

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:24:10 +0000, Robin Nuttall wrote:
On Nov 16, 8:58 pm, Jeff Dege wrote:
On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:24:10 +0000, Robin Nuttall wrote:
Jeff Dege wrote:

I don't know any trainers that rely upon positive punishment. Every
trainer I've seen who used corrections, whether with choke chains,
prong collars, ecollars, or rattle cans, used a mix of positive and
negative reinforcement.

Positive Punishment means adding something to decrease a behavior. Ear
pinches and collar pops are positive punishment. Throwing a penny can at
the dog is also positive punishment.

Ear pinches and collar pops are aversive stimuli. Whether they result in
positive punishment or negative reinforcement is purely a matter of
timing.

Negative Reinforcement is taking something away to increase a
behavior--the release of the ear pinch once the dog has picked up the
dumbbell is one.

Almost all so-called "traditional" trainers (a term coined by clicker
trainers, don't know if I like it, but not sure if there's a better
term) use P+ and R- on a fairly regular basis. Clicker trainers tend to
stay away from those methods, but they too use them.

I don't know any traditional trainers who make significant use of P+. I
know a few who start off with R-, and many who start with P+ and proof
with R-.

Sorry, but if we're going to talk about this stuff, it's helpful to at
least try to get it right.

I don't think I had it wrong. If the dog pulls and you give the dog a
collar pop to get him to stop, that's positive punishment. If you order
the dog to heel and give him collar pops until he complies, that's
negative reinforcement.

If you just give the dog collar pops because you're frustrated at your
inability to get the dog to pay any attention, that's neither.

--
I'd rather know one such man [like Beethoven] than all the golf
professionals.
- H. L. Mencken