Mixed terrier bitch, 30#, about 5 years old, rescued.
Good health, only one bad habit: attacks!

Can a shock collar be used to retrain this rescue that
attacks other dogs? So far she's not a biter but a
barker/lunger, but if this cannot be "fixed" she'll
become unrescued. That would be a pity because in other
respects she's a fine dog, and with people, she's
wonderful.

Henry wrote:
Mixed terrier bitch, 30#, about 5 years old, rescued. Good health, only
one bad habit: attacks!

Can a shock collar be used to retrain this rescue that attacks other
dogs? So far she's not a biter but a barker/lunger, but if this cannot
be "fixed" she'll become unrescued. That would be a pity because in
other respects she's a fine dog, and with people, she's wonderful.


If you're thinking of getting the electronic collar and using it as some
sort of magic bullet, then no, I don't think it's a good idea. If
you're planning on consulting with a good trainer who is open to the
idea of an electronic collar as a possible aid to go along with a
complete training program, then it might be just the thing-- or it might
not. You have to be open to other training methods too.


Tell me more about these attacks. She only attacks other dogs, no? You
own these dogs? Or could you manage the problem, at least temporarily,
by keeping her away from all other dogs? Give us a full scenario--
where your dog is, what she does before the attack, what the other dog
does, the circumstances, what you mean when you say she attacks without
biting, all the details.


--Lia

Henry spoke these words of wisdom in news:fk9uls$j67$1
@registered.motzarella.org:

Mixed terrier bitch, 30#, about 5 years old, rescued.
Good health, only one bad habit: attacks!

Can a shock collar be used to retrain this rescue that
attacks other dogs? So far she's not a biter but a
barker/lunger, but if this cannot be "fixed" she'll
become unrescued. That would be a pity because in other
respects she's a fine dog, and with people, she's
wonderful.


The shock collar used in this instance will probably make her more
aggressive, veiwing this as being "attacked" herself. Shock collars on dog
aggressive dogs is a really bad idea.

In article ,
Julia Altshuler wrote:

If
you're planning on consulting with a good trainer who is open to the
idea of an electronic collar as a possible aid to go along with a
complete training program, then it might be just the thing-- or it might
not. You have to be open to other training methods too.

Lia is 100% correct. Using an e-collar under direction from a skilled
trainer, to redirect or direct, can be a very useful tool Bad timing
and inappropriate use will only hurt an aggression issue.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Henry" wrote in message:

Mixed terrier bitch,

Mixed terrier as in pitbull/amstaff type of terrier? If not, do you have a
guess as to what kind?

Can a shock collar be used to retrain this rescue that
attacks other dogs? So far she's not a biter but a
barker/lunger, but if this cannot be "fixed" she'll
become unrescued.

Does she do this on-leash? Off-leash? With other dogs in her household?
Only with dogs she doesn't know? With dogs in her neighborhood but not
others? How do you manage her behavior now? What have you done to prevent
it? What sort of training has she received? Basically, we need more
information.

Considering that timing would be extremely crucial in using an e-collar,
just slapping one on and zapping her when she's acting aggressively towards
another dog would in all likelihood, make her behavior worse. You should
find a trainer, a good one that uses a wide array of tools and
methodologies, and work with them to get her behavior under control.

Suja

I personally don't believe that pain and suffering ever taught anybody, or a
dog, anything. Do you know how dogs trained to fight are trained? If not,
then educate yourself. Fear, pain, etc. are all the methods used. Why would
you want to continue his brutalization with a shock collar. I think the dog
needs another owner, not you.


"Henry" wrote in message
...
Mixed terrier bitch, 30#, about 5 years old, rescued.
Good health, only one bad habit: attacks!

Can a shock collar be used to retrain this rescue that
attacks other dogs? So far she's not a biter but a
barker/lunger, but if this cannot be "fixed" she'll
become unrescued. That would be a pity because in other
respects she's a fine dog, and with people, she's
wonderful.

Dennis Warren Bates wrote:
I personally don't believe that pain and suffering ever taught anybody, or a
dog, anything.

I guarantee you that dogs learn from pain.

Do you know how dogs trained to fight are trained? If not,
then educate yourself. Fear, pain, etc. are all the methods used.

Having had dog-aggressive dogs, I'm baffled at why anyone would have
to *train* a dog that's been bred to be dog-aggressive to fight. It
makes no sense to me.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Julia Altshuler wrote:
Henry wrote:
Mixed terrier bitch, 30#, about 5 years old, rescued. Good health,
only one bad habit: attacks!

Can a shock collar be used to retrain this rescue that attacks other
dogs? So far she's not a biter but a barker/lunger, but if this cannot
be "fixed" she'll become unrescued. That would be a pity because in
other respects she's a fine dog, and with people, she's wonderful.


If you're thinking of getting the electronic collar and using it as some
sort of magic bullet, then no, I don't think it's a good idea. If
you're planning on consulting with a good trainer who is open to the
idea of an electronic collar as a possible aid to go along with a
complete training program, then it might be just the thing-- or it might
not. You have to be open to other training methods too.


Tell me more about these attacks. She only attacks other dogs, no? You
own these dogs? Or could you manage the problem, at least temporarily,
by keeping her away from all other dogs? Give us a full scenario--
where your dog is, what she does before the attack, what the other dog
does, the circumstances, what you mean when you say she attacks without
biting, all the details.


--Lia


Lia,

Thanks for the response. Let me expand on this...

She attacks anything that moves, unless it's a "friend"
- defined as an animal she's met. Some dogs in the
neighborhood, our cat, a backyard skunk, some dogs at
the dog park, are all "friends". A "stranger" stimulates
an instantaneous response, whether on or off leash.

She charges, and upon arrival barks, lunges, but doesn't
actually get into biting. If the other dog remains
passive, she quickly gets into sniffing, and in a minute
that dog becomes a "friend". So far, she hasn't
encountered a "stranger" that reciprocated with
aggression, so we don't know what would happen. She has
great visual memory and remembers friends very well,
even from a distance.

When some stranger is walking a small dog that is
attacked in this manner, the feeling is very defensive.
There are many areas around us (we live on a golf
course, for example) in which dogs are commonly
off-leash, but not this one because she'd make people
very uncomfortable.

When she's in the car and sees a dog, she barks. She
chases rabbits, squirrels, crows, etc. but with a sort
of bouncing jubilance rather than an intensity.

The costly "experts" with whom we've consulted have
converged on the electronic collar, agreeing that the
button must be pushed within a fraction of a second of
the initial lunge. The proposed collar generates a tone
or vibration followed by a shock, and I'm told that
after a few conditioning events she'll respond to the
initial stimulus alone.

This is a very, very smart dog that with humans is a
delight. It would be a great pity to have to return her,
which in our area would surely lead to euthanasia. We've
invested heavily trying to solve the problem, and don't
know of a rational "next step" other than that collar.

Henry

Henry wrote:

Thanks for the response. Let me expand on this...

She attacks anything that moves, unless it's a "friend" - defined as an
animal she's met. Some dogs in the neighborhood, our cat, a backyard
skunk, some dogs at the dog park, are all "friends". A "stranger"
stimulates an instantaneous response, whether on or off leash.

She charges, and upon arrival barks, lunges, but doesn't actually get
into biting. If the other dog remains passive, she quickly gets into
sniffing, and in a minute that dog becomes a "friend". So far, she
hasn't encountered a "stranger" that reciprocated with aggression, so we
don't know what would happen. She has great visual memory and remembers
friends very well, even from a distance.

When some stranger is walking a small dog that is attacked in this
manner, the feeling is very defensive. There are many areas around us
(we live on a golf course, for example) in which dogs are commonly
off-leash, but not this one because she'd make people very uncomfortable.

When she's in the car and sees a dog, she barks. She chases rabbits,
squirrels, crows, etc. but with a sort of bouncing jubilance rather than
an intensity.

The costly "experts" with whom we've consulted have converged on the
electronic collar, agreeing that the button must be pushed within a
fraction of a second of the initial lunge. The proposed collar generates
a tone or vibration followed by a shock, and I'm told that after a few
conditioning events she'll respond to the initial stimulus alone.

This is a very, very smart dog that with humans is a delight. It would
be a great pity to have to return her, which in our area would surely
lead to euthanasia. We've invested heavily trying to solve the problem,
and don't know of a rational "next step" other than that collar.


I have no experience with electric collars, so I'll leave that subject
to the people who know more about them. I'm going to suggest something
different.


You say your dog is fine with animals she's met, so that must mean the
other dogs in your household. The trouble is the strange dogs she meets
on walks. First, management. This isn't a cure, but if your dog is
always on a leash, you can pull her away from lunging at other dogs.
I'm guessing it will be easier to get the timing right with the leash
than with the electronic collar.


Next, distract. I'd suggest teaching a SIT. This would be part of a
comprehensive obedience program that also includes COME, STAY, DOWN,
OFF, HEEL, etc. You start working on the commands when your dog is at
home and where there are no distractions. When she starts to get the
hang of sitting the moment you tell her to do so, you move her outside,
near the house, and where there are as few distractions as possible.
You also continue to practice inside. With lots of review, you work on
the perfect SIT. When you're really confident that she will always SIT
when you tell her to, try it when she's on leash and a strange dog is in
the distance. Finally, when another dog approaches, you tell her to
SIT. She can't sit and lunge at the same time.


I haven't typed out the particulars of how to teach the SIT because you
have trainers to help with that. I will say this: Remember to keep
your part of the bargain. If you're using a method that uses rewards,
don't stop rewarding. Don't assume that your dog has learned something
so you don't have to continue responding. You do have to keep training.


--Lia

I appreciate all responses, though it's apparent that
some responders didn't read the information I posted,
and one - HOWE - posted a 100% self-serving manic
response that must have been typed when his
institution's supervisor looked away.

After talking to local experts, I went to the national
community for help, and did get some. The local opinion
(very costly!) was that this dog needs an instant
interruption of what appears as a virtually instinctive
response to the sight of another dog. After she starts
moving, if she recognizes the other dog she shudders to
a walk and approaches with conventional butt-wiggling.
Enroute, if she doesn't recognize that dog she attacks -
not to bite (so far) but it's pretty aggressive.

In the house and on the property she's fine with the
cat. In a neighbor's house, she's fine with two dogs and
another cat. Let a stranger enter the premises, and
she's off like a shot.

We might go for the combination of a professional and an
electronic collar to see if that 'interruption' works...

It's a last resort prior to return, which will surely be
followed by euthanasia.