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What lengths and expenses do we go to?



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 11th 08, 12:05 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Janet Boss
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Posts: 4,368
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?

I know this is a highly personal question in some ways, but also just a
"what is right?" question.

I'm once again faced with a gravely ill pet and once again, trying to
make decisions that make the most sense. I'm not asking anyone to
make decisions for me, but what criteria do you consider when choosing a
course of treatment or not?

I'm thinking about previous decisions and some of the criteria:

* likelihood of dramatic or substantial improvement of condition
* pain and suffering for the pet with or w/out the treatment or surgery
* odds of something going very wrong during surgery (if applicable)
* odds of an additional condition and how that affects treatment
* quality of life
* expected lifespan of pet if issue is resolved/managed
* cost

I personally hate the last one, but it is a fact of life.

Does anyone have anything to add to the list that I may have not thought
of?

BTW - this is my 14.9 yo cat Carey who was been sick with undiagnosed
illness for 6+ years. She has finally been diagnosed as hyperthyroid,
but doesn't exhibit all of the symptoms, most notably, she is anorexic
rather than ravenous.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
  #2  
Old June 11th 08, 12:54 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Phyrie
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Posts: 427
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?


"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...
I know this is a highly personal question in some ways, but also just a
"what is right?" question.

I'm once again faced with a gravely ill pet and once again, trying to
make decisions that make the most sense. I'm not asking anyone to
make decisions for me, but what criteria do you consider when choosing a
course of treatment or not?

I'm thinking about previous decisions and some of the criteria:

* likelihood of dramatic or substantial improvement of condition
* pain and suffering for the pet with or w/out the treatment or surgery
* odds of something going very wrong during surgery (if applicable)
* odds of an additional condition and how that affects treatment
* quality of life
* expected lifespan of pet if issue is resolved/managed
* cost

I personally hate the last one, but it is a fact of life.

Does anyone have anything to add to the list that I may have not thought
of?

BTW - this is my 14.9 yo cat Carey who was been sick with undiagnosed
illness for 6+ years. She has finally been diagnosed as hyperthyroid,
but doesn't exhibit all of the symptoms, most notably, she is anorexic
rather than ravenous.


This very topic came up not long ago when we were contemplating dropping the
health insurance we have on Kiba. It's more than paid for itself, and we've
decided to keep him insured, but the topic was discussed with some friends
about "what would you do, and what lengths we should go to as pet owners".
One friend said one of the criteria should be "Replaceability." After the
shock wore off, she explained. If her cat had been ill for a long time,
possibly suffering, she would consider the fact that the animal might be
better off out of it's misery, and then there would be room in her life for
another unwanted and rescued animal. Bad choice of words, perhaps, but the
sentiment was understandable. There are so many animals waiting for
adoption in the shelters that maybe prolonging an animal's life, with it's
attendant costs, monetary and emotional, isn't a kindness, but a double
cruelty, to both the suffering animal and the un-adopted pet left in the
shelter. I'm not sure that I agree, and I'm lucky enough to have two
healthy animals, Kiba the Cav and Spyder the Tabby, so can't relate yet.
But it is another point of view.
--
Phyrie
Kiba the Cav's Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phyrie/...758930/detail/


  #3  
Old June 11th 08, 01:29 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
montana wildhack
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Posts: 3,032
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?

On 2008-06-10 19:05:03 -0400, Janet Boss
said:

Does anyone have anything to add to the list that I may have not thought
of?


Are the odds any different with or without management? (Spencer's
prognosis was about the same with or without surgery, for instance)


  #4  
Old June 11th 08, 02:50 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
\(the\)duckster
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Posts: 326
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?


"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...
I know this is a highly personal question in some ways, but also just a
"what is right?" question.

I'm once again faced with a gravely ill pet and once again, trying to
make decisions that make the most sense. I'm not asking anyone to
make decisions for me, but what criteria do you consider when choosing a
course of treatment or not?

I'm thinking about previous decisions and some of the criteria:

* likelihood of dramatic or substantial improvement of condition
* pain and suffering for the pet with or w/out the treatment or surgery
* odds of something going very wrong during surgery (if applicable)
* odds of an additional condition and how that affects treatment
* quality of life
* expected lifespan of pet if issue is resolved/managed
* cost

I personally hate the last one, but it is a fact of life.

Does anyone have anything to add to the list that I may have not thought
of?

BTW - this is my 14.9 yo cat Carey who was been sick with undiagnosed
illness for 6+ years. She has finally been diagnosed as hyperthyroid,
but doesn't exhibit all of the symptoms, most notably, she is anorexic
rather than ravenous.


When my Hadji was diagnosed with cancer, I looked back on the love and
patience he showed when he allowed me to help him heal from a torn ACL.
Heal being the operative word.

With the cancer, I had to ask myself for whom would I keep the dog alive?
Him or me? How could I explain to him the pain of surgery, chemo, medicines
that would only perhaps prolong his life a bit, but certainly not "cure"
him?

In the end, we chose to make his life comfortable, pain free as possible.
At the time, it was full of puppies from our dumped SugarMama, so my memory
of him rumbling around like Sarge, keeping his charges in line, pictures of
him being snuggled by BodiePup; are for me far more joyous pictures than a
memory of trying to keep a dying beloved one alive.

In the end, of course, I and my husband held him close while dear Dr. Janet
performed the final duty. It broke my heart then, it grieves me to this
day. But I know the decision was a correct one. I miss him still.

I'm sorry you are faced with this choice. Your list is a good one.

Kind regards,
(the)duckster


  #5  
Old June 11th 08, 02:57 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Rocky[_2_]
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Posts: 2,421
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?

Janet Boss said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I'm thinking about previous decisions and some of the
criteria:


[snip]
* pain and suffering for the pet


That's what's important to me, but is the most difficult to
define and determine wrt to our pets. "I know it when I see
it" is a good mantra.

Good luck.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #6  
Old June 11th 08, 03:08 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
montana wildhack
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Posts: 3,032
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?

"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...
I know this is a highly personal question in some ways, but also just a
"what is right?" question.

I'm once again faced with a gravely ill pet and once again, trying to
make decisions that make the most sense.


I forgot to add that we're very sad to hear about Carey's situation
and, by extension your family's pain.

  #7  
Old June 11th 08, 04:42 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
KWBrown
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Posts: 11
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?

On Jun 10, 4:05 pm, Janet Boss
wrote:

I'm thinking about previous decisions and some of the criteria:

* likelihood of dramatic or substantial improvement of condition
* pain and suffering for the pet with or w/out the treatment or surgery
* odds of something going very wrong during surgery (if applicable)
* odds of an additional condition and how that affects treatment
* quality of life
* expected lifespan of pet if issue is resolved/managed
* cost


You've articulated it well, Janet. I went looking for such a list
when we put Storm down at Christmastime. (Osteosarcoma, after a long,
long hunt during which she was in increasing pain.) We had to assess
all of the above at the amputate-or-not decision point.

While many dogs do well post-amputation with additional radiation and
chemo, the benefit Storm would have seen was minimal and not worth
putting her through another surgery: and it would have been cruel to
let her pain continue to grow worse. She was only getting through
each day on heavy Metacam as it was.

So, once the diagnosis was confirmed by biopsy, we said, "Goodbye"
after one more trip to the duck pond. Every one of your check-points
said, "no more."

I thought I was mostly through this, but my young FCR (3 yo) came back
from a walk a little lame in the front end the other day, and it was
like living through the horror all over again. Thank goodness he's OK
today. As much as I love these black dogs, I think I'm through with
them after this one.

Still and all: today, I saw an elderly greyhound out for his thrice-
daily walk with his old man. The two of them are creaky and barely
ambulatory, but there they are, three times a day. The hound is in
so much pain that he cranks his tail with each step, but keeps on
going, gamely.

I never know quite what to think of the two of them. That old dog is
getting out and about every day, and is with his Man, but at what
cost?

The decision is never easy, nor clear, except to those at the very
heart of the matter.
  #8  
Old June 11th 08, 04:52 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
FurPaw
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Posts: 1,469
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?

Janet Boss wrote:

I'm thinking about previous decisions and some of the criteria:

* likelihood of dramatic or substantial improvement of condition
* pain and suffering for the pet with or w/out the treatment or surgery
* odds of something going very wrong during surgery (if applicable)
* odds of an additional condition and how that affects treatment
* quality of life
* expected lifespan of pet if issue is resolved/managed
* cost

I personally hate the last one, but it is a fact of life.

Does anyone have anything to add to the list that I may have not thought
of?

BTW - this is my 14.9 yo cat Carey who was been sick with undiagnosed
illness for 6+ years. She has finally been diagnosed as hyperthyroid,
but doesn't exhibit all of the symptoms, most notably, she is anorexic
rather than ravenous.


The most important criteria for us have been pain and suffering,
and quality of life, for elderly dogs for whom no recovery was
possible (heart conditions). Even then, it wasn't an easy
decision, and I suspect we may have let Chile go a week or a few
over the line. We tried to judge based on things like keeping
their usual routine, enjoyment of food and other favorite things,
evidence of pain or discomfort. It's easier if the decline is
rapid, difficult if it's very slow and gradual, like Chile's.

The others are important, too, where applicable, and cost is an
unfortunate reality.

I'm sorry that Carey is doing poorly enough that you have to ask
yourself that question. It's not easy, and I know you'll decide
based on what you think is best for her. And that will be a good
decision.

FurPaw

--
The plural of anecdote is not proof.

To reply, unleash the dog.
  #9  
Old June 11th 08, 05:32 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Paul E. Schoen
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Posts: 1,654
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?


"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...
I know this is a highly personal question in some ways, but also just a
"what is right?" question.

I'm once again faced with a gravely ill pet and once again, trying to
make decisions that make the most sense. I'm not asking anyone to
make decisions for me, but what criteria do you consider when choosing a
course of treatment or not?

I'm thinking about previous decisions and some of the criteria:

* likelihood of dramatic or substantial improvement of condition
* pain and suffering for the pet with or w/out the treatment or surgery
* odds of something going very wrong during surgery (if applicable)
* odds of an additional condition and how that affects treatment
* quality of life
* expected lifespan of pet if issue is resolved/managed
* cost

I personally hate the last one, but it is a fact of life.

Does anyone have anything to add to the list that I may have not thought
of?

BTW - this is my 14.9 yo cat Carey who was been sick with undiagnosed
illness for 6+ years. She has finally been diagnosed as hyperthyroid,
but doesn't exhibit all of the symptoms, most notably, she is anorexic
rather than ravenous.


I am thankful that I have not had to deal with this on a personal level, so
it is hard to grasp the totality of the situation. Your list seems very
reasonable and logical, and your last item is a difficult one to accept.
When you have had a pet for a long time, and deep bonds have grown, the gut
reaction is that no cost is too much to try to extend life for even a
little longer. But when you consider that there are many young, healthy,
adorable animals in shelters or at AC, scheduled to be euthanized for no
other reason than lack of room and no one to take them, it seems it would
make the decision easier. But it's never really easy.

A long time friend had three cats, Clayton, Strata, and Muncie, and the
older male, Clayton, was my favorite. Strata was a run of the mill, laid
back female, and Muncie was a very unsociable critter who would just as
soon shred my arm as allow me to pet him. But Clayton was cool. He was
affectionate enough, but not overbearing and needy, and would appreciate
being petted and held, but then would move on to doing other important cat
things, like sleeping and patrolling for mice. He had some special needs,
and suffered from asthma and other things, but they were under control. I
think my friend spent hundreds and probably thousands of dollars on him,
and I kidded her that I would take him, cure all his ills, and bring him
back for maybe $50. But I said he might look a bit different, act
different, and even not recognize her at first, but he would definitely be
healthier. Eventually he became too ill to get out of his little sick bed
she had made for him, and she knew it was time. I went with her to the
vet's, and both of us held him while he was dispatched to the Bridge. It
was a very peaceful end for a very special pet.

I'm sorry to hear of yet another pet in your life with such problems, but
when you have many animals, it is a fact of life. I'm sure you will make
the best decision for all concerned, and you should not feel bad if cost is
a factor, especially if you will be able to save another otherwise doomed
animal.

Paul and Muttley


  #10  
Old June 11th 08, 11:59 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Janet Boss
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Posts: 4,368
Default What lengths and expenses do we go to?

In article ,
elegy wrote:


yay for a diagnosis! what options are you considering?


First, I want to thank everyone for their comments. I find that they
help me sort through some of this a bit better.

The treatment plan is for Tapazole, which can be withdrawn if the kidney
issues that exist are brought to a head by it. Unfortunately, that
would also leave us at square one, and if not caught soon enough (there
would be regular blood tests) lead to death from CRF. If the Tapazole
does the trick but does not make kidney issues worse, radioactive iodine
treatment is the next recommended course of action, which leads to
permanent (sometimes not) curing of the thyroid issue. If the kidney
issue worsens then, we're out of luck.

The biggest fear/concern is that there is an underlying issue like
cancer, which we cannot know about. That would make the treatments moot
and put her through a longer period of suffering. Not doing anything
will lead to death obviously.

Although the vet tech weighed her at 5# on the baby scale I'm doubting
it. When she sits on my regular scale (which she likes to do), it does
not register beyond the 1/2# mark. When she goes to the vet tomorrow, I
will weigh her carrier with and without her for more accuracy.

She has spent much of the last week not moving from her cat bed except
to urinate a river both in her box and out. She drinks a fair amount of
water and only with appetite stimulants, eats a very small amount.

6 years ago, she was paralyzed and started acting aggressively at random
(triggered by noise). The paralysis resolved after a few weeks, but we
still have no idea why it happened to begin with. We went through
extensive testing at the time (vet neurologist), and various testing at
various vets throughout the last 6 years. She's been on a number of
different meds over the years with some minor improvement of her
urination and aggression issues, then her aggression issues have
diminished and disappeared (she has not had episodes since Marcie
arrived). She has had OCD behaviors (sucking on dogs).

To some extent, I'm of the "in for a penny in for a pound" both money
and effort wise. OTOH, we're exhausted by the whole ordeal.

Sorry this is so long, but I figured that if anyone has any other
thoughts after reading it, I'm listening.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
 




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