"The animals usually made it outside the nearby gate for bathroom
breaks. The few times they didn't, ushers quickly mopped up the mess.
'I wish the humans would behave as well as the dogs do,' said usher
Darren Drury, 34".

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...0?OpenDocument

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Obama's Lost Annenberg Years Coming to Light.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/..._years_co.html

Obama's friends, Billy and Bernie. spit
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/1...linois-hiding/

Censoring skepticism.
http://tigerhawk.blogspot.com/2008/0...kepticism.html

"Find out where his kids go to school": Just don't do the same thing regarding a Democrat. That would be McCarthyism.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1218...he+Web+Toda y

25 reasons you may be a racist.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...RmZDM3NzAxY2I=

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

"Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Rese arch_Laboratory"
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Rese
wrote in message .. .
HOWEDY tommy sorenson aka not so handsome,
not so happy, not so gentle, not so manly, jackass,
not even jack morrison aka joey finnochiarrio aka
howie lipshitz aka BIG DADDY aka DOGMAN,
a.k.a. PUSSYMAN, you pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin anonymHOWES malignant maliciHOWES
dog child an spHOWES abusing punk thug coward
active acute chronic life long incurable mental case and
paranoid homophobe, misogynist, puppy miller and shock
collar salesman,

"Handsome Jack Morrison" wrote in message
...
Subject: Dog day afternnon at Busch Stadium

YAY~!

GO CARDINALS~!

"The animals usually made it outside the nearby gate for bathroom
breaks. The few times they didn't, ushers quickly mopped up the mess.
'I wish the humans would behave as well as the dogs do,' said usher
Darren Drury, 34".
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...0?OpenDocument

Perhaps they could use some OBEDIENCE TRAININ, eh, tommy?

Let's talk abHOWET your trainin methods, tommy?

tommy wrote:
From: (Dogman) Date: 1997/11/11
Subject: Koehler's Usefulness--A Concluding Assessment

This, from a yellow-bellied coward who has TOTALLY refused
to engage me in debate, preferring mudslinging, hyperbole, distortion,
lies, exaggeration, and to take Koehler completely out of context,
instead.

What lying hypocrites these hand-wringers are!

The most consistent argument among Koehler's defenders is based
on a questionable assumption that such "drastic" measures are
effective in "extreme" cases where other methods fail.

------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

HOWE COME would a EXXXPERT such as tommy set their
INFORMATIVE posts to EXXXPIRE in six days like matty
a.k.a. Rocky, diddler, elegy, meat terri a.k.a. dogsnuts, professora
melanie chang, marquis de "READ KOEHLER FOR CONTENT"
shaw and not so handsome not so gentle jackass, not even jack
morrison a.k.a. joe finnochiarrio a.k.a. BIG DADDY a.k.a.
DOGMAN??

Ooops~! That last anonymHOWES coward is tommy.

Is tommy EMBARRASSED by his own words, the lyin animal
murderin punk thug coward mental case fraud an SCAM ARTIST?

matty aka Rocky EXXXPLAINS HOWE COME:

"Rocky" wrote
For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.

What an idiotic response!

Whoops.

-------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!~!~!

LIKE THIS:

tommy wrote:

"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and shin. Yep, really lean into it.

Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.

Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.

If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.

When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."

I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."

"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.

A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive *******
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens

At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."

=====================

tommy *(who AIN'T tommy sorensen) sez:

"IMO, the *fastest* way to curb a mouthy puppy's
desire to bite hands (especially if other methods
have failed, because you don't want this habit to
become reinforced by too much success), etc., is
to take advantage of the pup's gag reflex:

Slowly reach over and around the pup's shoulder
(while you're sitting on the floor), coming up to
the pup's mouth from underneath it with your
right hand (that way he can't see your finger or
your hand), and stick your index finger into the
pup's mouth, at the very rear, then down the
pup's throat, and gently place some downward
pressure on the back of the tongue, until he starts
to gag. Use your left arm to hold him close to you,
while you're doing this.

Trust me, it's easier to demonstrate this technique
than to explain it, but it's fail-proof.

He'll quickly put 2 and 2 together. Biting hands = gag.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

-------------------

From: (Dogman)
Date: 1999/01/15
Subject: Another mouthy lab

Get this book:

"The Art of Raising A Puppy," by the Monks of New Skete

If you can't find it locally, you can obtain it
through my Web site (see below).

You'll need it for more than just the usual puppy
"mouthing" problems, anyway.

And good luck with your Lab puppy!
--
Dogman

------------------------

From: (Michael Erskine)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 10:09:05 -0700

Subject: My GSD bit me.
The question:

I have a four year old male GSD. He growls
at me sometimes. When he growls at me he
stares me in the face and lays his ears back.

The New Skete books say that the dog should not be
allowed to do that. They suggest shaking down the
dog by grabing the dog on the sides of his neck and
picking him off his front feet, then giving the dog the
same sort of treatment the dog would give another if
it were challenging him.

Namely getting in the dogs face and letting
the dog know you are the alpha dog.

Well, my dog bit me clearly he felt that I was not
convincing enough or he bit me out of fear.

Anyone got ideas on what to do with this dog that might
help him to decide that he wants to follow and that he
has nothing to fear from me?

----------------------

From: Charlie Wilkes
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:21:14 GMT
Subject: My GSD bit me.

You need to improve your acting skills. Get a werewolf
suit with blood-drenched fangs and claw gloves and THEN
go after your dog.

Knock the **** out of him and don't be afraid to crack
some ribs. Then yank the mask off and shout "SURPRISE!
IT'S ME!" I guarantee you and your dog will have a new
relationship based on mutual respect.

Keep in mind that the monks of New Skete
were pre-Lon-Chaney.

Charlie

-----------------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.

"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by
the mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."

"Housebreaking Problems:

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid
correction.

When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.

It is important to your future relationship that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.

When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.

Be consistent in your handling.

To have a pup almost house-broken and then force
him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity
to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will
make your job easier.

The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.

For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.

The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves
you no other course than to punish him sufficiently
to convince him that the satisfaction of his
wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the
punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house.

An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish
him again for the same thing.

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.

It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.

---------------------

AIN'T GOT NO AGENDAS HERE, SEE??

Here's lyin DOGDUMMY BEATIN a dog to HOWEsbreak IT:

wrote in message
...

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:52:18 -0400, "Krishur"
wrote:

Good books huh?

Absolutely. Some are, in fact, classics.

Which idea was your favorite, the one where they
tell you to alpha roll a "dominant" dog,

There's nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog
(i.e., it *can* and *does* work in *some* situations).
Unfortunately, most people either do it incorrectly, do
it at the wrong time, etc.

or where they tell you that you didn't hit him hard
enough if he doesn't yelp or approaches you within
5 minutes of his punishment?

If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after careful
evaluation), it's much more cruel not to get it over with
quickly than it is to do it incrementally and half-
heartedly, which usually only invites the need for even
more discipline.

Maybe you liked when they recommend these
beatings for housebreaking accidents, chewing /
destructive behavior, stealing, trying to get on
your bed at night and dog on dog aggression.

At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating
a dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin
does *not* constitute a "beating."

I'm sorry if you don't agree.

And each of those behavior "problems" needs
to be looked at in its proper context.

A quote from the Monks:

"We repeat, these situations may merit physical
discipline. Since no book can pretend to analyze
every individual dog and situation, we feel obligated
to emphasize from the outset that discipline is never
an arbitrary training technique to be applied to each
and every dog for all offenses. We do, however, believe
that physical and verbal discipline can be an effective
technique.

The best policy if you experience any of the above
problems is to consult a qualified trainer or veterinarian
or evaluation of your individual situation....

"If discipline is decided upon as a training technique,
it should be the proper technique. We feel we have
developed several methods that depend less on violent
physical force than timing, a flair for drama, and the
element of surprise.

We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to map
out these methods, rather than simply skip the topic
because it is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know
what to do."

In other words, physical discipline is reserved for those
serious, special occasions when other methods have failed.

For example, they do not recommend using physical
discipline for *routine* housebreaking chores -- only
on those rare occasions when an already reliably
housebroken dog is (after careful evaluation) deemed
to be soiling the house on purpose, backsliding, etc.

I'll give you an actual example. Years ago, an adult dog
was brought to me as an *incurable* house-soiler. It
was either get the dog reliably housetrained or the dog
was going on a one way trip to the pound.

Being the kind, compassionate trainer that I am, I
was prepared to do whatever it took to get this dog
house-trained and save his life.

After several weeks of more or less traditional training,
and to poor result, I brought out the big guns -- physical
and verbal discipline. Whenever the dog soiled the house
(no, you don't even have to catch him in the act), I
immediately (but very calmly) tossed a leash on his collar,
dragged him to the scene of the crime, and (using a large
chair as a prop) tethered him to the leg of the chair, with
his nose about two inches away from the poop. After a
couple of swats on the rump, some loud vocalizing, and a
wait of about 20 minutes, I'd release the dog and then
ignore him for a while. I had to repeat this process *three*
times, I think -- and the house-soiling miraculously
stopped. The dog went home to enjoy a long and contented
life with his original owners, and I got to feel good about
myself.

So, yes, the Monk's books are good ones. Even for novices.

Yup, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
-- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove
the detonator to reply via e-mail

BWEEEAAAAHAAAAHAAAA~!~!~!

"Handsome Jack Morrison"

wrote in message
...

On 26 Jul 2003 22:14:29 GMT,
(DogStar716) wrote:
Never mind dogman
You too? Some folks just never learn.

Uh huh

One of the signs of mental illness
is to say "Uh huh" a lot.

PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn't on this
list, he (or she) is NOT an approved Koehler trainer, no
matter how loud you scream otherwise.

May I laugh again? LOL! One doesn't need to be
on a list to use Koehlers methods or teach his methods.
Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you that
not every trainer who uses a leash is a *Koehler* trainer.
Sheesh.

This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but
if she's hanging 12 week old puppies, she's about
as far from a Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can
possibly be.

Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing.
I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I'm not
adhering to the doctrine, I'm something else.

http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/patoflearn.html

Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware
that whoever wrote it knows nothing about PR
based training:

"Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend
in Positive Reinforcement Only training systems"
You cannot use PR only.

Au contraire. Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and many
other places as well) *claim* that they use nothing but R.
You know, the PPers.

And they do it quite loudly, too.

Surely you aren't blind (and deaf), as well as ignorant?

Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar.

And if you knew anything about PR BASED training,
you would realize that. It's not all cookies and babytalk.

There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome
Jack Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool
in my bag, including R-, P, and P-, because I know
that even R has its limits.

You'd know that too, if you didn't
have your head in the sand.

But that seems to be the battle cry of the Koehler-ites.

The Koehlerites have no battle cry.

They have behaviorism on their side, and
that's more than enough.

I don't need instruction on how to give my dogs
a proper leash correction as I do not rely on a
leash to control or teach my dog.

That may or may not be suitable for your needs,
but it's not suitable for the majority of dog owners,
especially since the advent of leash laws.

Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler
training, Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in
need of a leash.

*(THAT'S HOWE COME tommy
SELLS SHOCK COLLARS)

That you apparently don't know that, once again
shows me just how ignorant of anything to do with
Koehler you are.

My last two dogs have been trained offleash right
from the start, using rewards for what I like, and
nothing for what I don't like.

Good for you, and if that level of training is good enough
for you, fine. But it's not good enough for many of the
rest of us.

Again, I'm not saying Koehler doesn't work.

I really have no idea what you're saying anymore, because
you apparently know so damn little about Koehler and
behavioral principles in general that it's hard to have an
informed discussion with you.

PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to
keep denying that those certain harsh methods are only
for LAST RESORT situations, intended only to SAVE
A DOG'S LIFE, even after I've repeatedly given you
direct *quotes* from Koehler's book saying just that.

It's like you don't even care how stupid people think
you are, or how devious you are, etc. That can't help
your cause any.

You'd think that you'd at least want to
*appear* to be honest, even if you're not. -

- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator
to reply via e-mail

--------------


Help us, Mike, by closing the door on him again (by putting him in
your kill file and/or refraining from replying to any of his posts),
otherwise you're going to end up in the attic, too.

Ask tommy his kennel name, mikey?:

"Dogman" wrote in message
...

And since I have repeatedly *denied* being either Tommy
Sorensen, Tommy Sorenson, Joe Finocchiaro, Joey
Finocchare, Joe Finocchiro, and a host of other people that
*you* have accused me of being, just who the hell do you
suppose would end up getting sued, you stupid little
dweeb?

Me? Or you?

Because I've discreditied YOU.

Where exactly did you do that, little man?

Where????????

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Maybe inside that demented little brain of yours, but nowhere else.

And until you're prepared to walk the walk and not just talk the talk,
"everyone" here will know you for what you really are.

A two-bit P-H-O-N-Y.
--
Dogman

http://www.i1.net/~dogman

HOWE COME tommy won't tell us his kennel name is sorensen's
Retrievers and SHOCK COLLAR SALES and his address and
phone #'s?:

From: A Real American
Date: 2000/10/11
Subject: Walking with Prong Collar

In case anyone was wondering who the anonymous poster
known as Dogman actually is, it is

Tom Sorenson of
Sorenson Kennels
(314) 828-5149
1073 Hwy DD
Defiance, MO
63341-1707

If you are offended by the language and the nastiness, please drop
him and his wife Kay a note or give them a call. You may also use
the route.

I will be reposting this information whenever I feel like it.

Uncle Sam

--------------------

As a matter of FACT we DID speak on
the phone, didn't we, tommy {}: ~ )

--
Jack "Crackpot" Morrison

Nice extended metaphor, and right you are.

INDEED? Then HOWE COME tommy is a lyin
dog abusin anonymHOWES COWARD, mikey?:

Newsgroups: comp.mail.eudora.ms-windows
From: Tom Sorensen
Date: 2000/07/21
Subject: Help! Installed 4.3.2 over 4.2 and lost Personalities
Signatures, Mailboxes, etc.

I recently installed 4.3.2 over 4.2 and in the process, I have
somehow lost my access to Personalities, Signatures, Mailboxes,
etc.

Well, initially when I hit the Personalities button(after installing
the new version), a box appeared on the left, where it's supposed
to appear, but nothing was there! No Personalities, no nothing.

Same thing for Mailboxes, etc. I tried dragging the divider to the
left (as I thought the Help file instructed), but now I've apparently
drug it so far left that I can't get it to drag to the right again.
That is, I can't get it to open up again.

Now I can't use the Personalities, Mailbox, and Signature buttons
at all, making it very difficult for me to send messages.

I manage several busy mail lists and need HELP ASAP!

Thanks in advance for any help you care to offer me.


Tom Sorensen


--
Dogman

http://www.i1.net/~dogman


-----------------------

From: dogman @i1.net (Joe Finocchiaro)
Date: 1996/12/04
Subject: I AM JOINING P.E.T.A.

From: dogman @i1.net (Joe Finocchiaro)
Date: 1996/12/02
Subject: Support for first-time puppy owners

From: dogman @i1.net (Dogman)
Date: 1999/02/11
Subject: Pussyman

Upon my return to the Cuckoo's Nest,
Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:46:51 GMT, says:

[...]

Hey Joey!!!!! Marshall has tracked you down to your den!!!
This is, what, the 5th time?

No, I make it the sixth, but then I'm not counting.

And it's still the wrong den, wrong wolf.

But who cares?

He's a freakin' professor, eh?

He's the very reason that S.A.T. scores have to
be "adjusted" every freakin' year.

Robert

Hypothetical question for Robert Crim and Joe Finocchiaro.

As the newsgroups self described tough guys (to your enemies)
and nice guys (to the innocent), how would you respond to a
posting of your complete addresses and phone numbers?

What kind of question is that???????

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.

They get weirder and weirder here by the day...

Hey, schmuckface, either say something about DOGS, or GO AWAY, eh?

Would you welcome any challenge, or protect the innocent, by
acknowledging the accuracy of the posted information? That
information, in fact, is readily available from a simple DejaNews
and Yahoo search.

Would you "walk the talk

Yo!
Stick it in your ear, eh?

And then keep sticking it in there until you come to your freakin'
senses.

Geeeeeeeeez.

--
Dogman


---------------------------

tommy *(who AIN'T tommy sorensen) sez:

"IMO, the *fastest* way to curb a mouthy puppy's
desire to bite hands (especially if other methods
have failed, because you don't want this habit to
become reinforced by too much success), etc., is
to take advantage of the pup's gag reflex:

Slowly reach over and around the pup's shoulder
(while you're sitting on the floor), coming up to
the pup's mouth from underneath it with your
right hand (that way he can't see your finger or
your hand), and stick your index finger into the
pup's mouth, at the very rear, then down the
pup's throat, and gently place some downward
pressure on the back of the tongue, until he starts
to gag. Use your left arm to hold him close to you,
while you're doing this.

Trust me, it's easier to demonstrate this technique
than to explain it, but it's fail-proof.

He'll quickly put 2 and 2 together. Biting hands = gag.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

-------------------

Looks like GOOGLE AIN'T your FRIEND,
wouldn't you agree, tommy??

Subject: A Completely New Model Of Learning

From: The Puppy Faerie
Date: Thurs, Nov 24 2005 8:27 pm

LeeCharlesKelley Wrote:
From what I've read of Jerry's method it incorporates
a completely new model of learning, which is based (in
simplest terms) on the idea that all behavior is the
result of finding a way to relieve emotional tension.

This is true not just for dogs but all animals.

You don't believe in the validity of this
particular model of learning? You don't
think it makes sense?

Fine, I guess.

But it makes total sense to me.

And it made sense to Pavlov, too,
though not many people know this.

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement."
IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are
what reinforces any behavior.

Finn once saw a small mouse come out of a hole
atthe base of a tree. Needless to say his prey
instinct kicked in BIG TIME and he chased it
back into the hole. This was 7 years before
he died. Up until the very last time he walked
through that section of the park (an hour before
he went) he checked the base of that tree.

He saw that mouse exactly *once*....he never
saw it again. Don't we all have stories like
that?

Especially those of us with dogs whose
prey drives are pretty intense?

And there are lots of examples that may not
even require the prey drive to be active,
just a strong desire to do something: a dog
who wants to escape from the back yard will
learn how to do it once and never forget it,
a dog who wants to jump on the couch or the
bed doesn't need any repetitions to "reinforce"
or re-learn the behavior.

If something is important to a dog, he'll
learn how to do it. Once he learns it, he
learns it. The trick to getting him to
"unlearn" it, is to give him a more
emotionally satisfying replacement behavior.

With Oscar and the cat, the more satisfying
behavior was relating to me instead of the cat.
(He's a Lab, with a strong need for social
connections, so that was pretty easy.)

I've been experimenting recently with Jerry
Howe's method of using a sound distraction,
then praising the dog, without any physical
contact, for 15 seconds.

My initial reaction to his technique was that
it was silly to keep praising the dog that long.

I mean, Jerry's a nut, right?

But in every case except one, when I've followed
the exercise exactly, I've seen a definite
physiological change take place in the dog -
-yawning or stretching have been the usual
indicators -- and after only a few repetitions,
the dog often relaxes, curls up, and goes to sleep!

I've tried this on barking, counter-surfing,
separation anxiety, even two dogs who live
together and fight constantly. I was pretty
amazed when I saw this little Boston give up
her aggression and start to yawn!

It's too early for me to be convinced that it
will work every single time with every single
dog, or that it will even have a lasting effect
on these dogs, but so far I think that it's
effective at reducing emotional tension, which,
as you know, I believe that all behavior comes
from the dog trying to find a way to reduce
emotional tension. If you give the dog a
replacement behavior that successfully reduces
emotional tension, the first behavior will no
longer be necessary and the dog will stop doing it.

From: "LeeCharlesKelley" -
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:03:38 -0400
Subject: Has anyone read . .

Leah:

I'm curious now. Are there any of our more
experienced and educated trainers (Lynn, Diane,
Janet, Belinda, et al) who have heard of this
as a viable method?

Kelley: Doubtful, since being "educated" in this
case means being indocrinated into a total
misunderstanding about how a dog's mind actually
operates.

As I said in my post, everything the experts say
about dogs is wrong. If the common folklore was
true, what I've been doing wouldn't work at all,
ever. And it not only works, it works better
than the accepted, prescribed way of doing things.

It's good that you're curious, but I wouldn't look
to any "educated" trainers for answers, I'd look to
your dogs.

-----------------

From: "LeeCharlesKelley"
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:14:49 -0400

Subject: Counter Cruising must stop

Leah:I did try to get my head around your theories, but
I can't buy them. praise *reinforces* the dog's behavior

I'll give you an easier example: say you're walking through
the park with your dog. She starts walking a little ahead
of you but not isn't intensely focused on something in the
environment, she's just a little restless to move ahead.

You praise her entususiastically and she turns and comes
back to your side. If praise were only a reinforcer, praising
her for moving ahead of you would have made her feel that
*that* behavior was good and reinforced it, right?

She would have been more likely to
stay in front of you than come back.

So in this example how and why did praise have the
opposite effect and *change* the behavior rather
than reinforce it?

From: "LeeCharlesKelley"
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:46:40 -0400

Subject: Counter Cruising must stop

John:I dunno. In both of these situations, praise
stopped the undesirable behavior. I would guess that
the praise meant more to your dog at that point than
the object he was after.

That's it pretty much in a nutshell. The dog was looking
for a way to relieve mild emotional tension. The behavior
was given up voluntarily when the dog found another source
of emotional satisfaction, being praised. Praise works,
as both a reward and a "correction", because it

changes the dog's emotional state. Behavior is caused by
emotion. When you change a dog's emotional state, you
automatically change his behavior.

John: What happens if that balance is disturbed. What
happens if the object your dog is going after means more
to them than your praise,

Then praise wouldn't have any effect on the behavior. In
order to use praise in this way you have to be able to "read"
the dog's emotions.

Although, I take that back. That's not necessarily true.

I once got an aggressive dog at the dog run to almost give
up her aggression by praising her every time she growled at
a dog who came too close. I wasn't doing it on purpose.

I was just trying to calm her nerves, but I noticed that
when I began praising her, her psychic buffer zone started
about fifteen feet away from where we were sitting.

But after praising her for ten minutes or so, she'd let a
dog get within five feet or less before the growls started
escaping from her throat. She even did the thing with her
nose, where she'd start to try and sniff the dog from her
perch on the park bench before the growl in her throat got
loose.

I thought she was very sweet underneath her swagger
and felt that with enough encouragement she might be
able to get off her ass and actually go play with some
of the other dogs, but her owner thought I was
"encouraging" her aggression and gave us both a good
scolding.

She was quite right to scold me. I hadn't been asked to
change her dog's behavior. But the dog hadn't been doing
a damn thing when the owner came over, grabbed her
roughly by the collar, held her snout and shouted in her face.

John:or what happens if you do not praise them for a
while when they attempt to perform the undesired behavior?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Praising a bad
behavior, if done in the right situation, with the right
timing, and with four or five repetitions, should get the
dog to totally give up the desire to produce the behavior
ever again, at least in that location.

Remember, the desire to produce the behavior comes from
internal emotional tension. If that tension is resolved
through praise (or whatever tactic you use), the dog will
have learned that the behavior it had wanted to produce
didn't get a successful result, but that listening to you
(or responding to whatever tactic you used to relieve the
tension) *did*.

So, I used his "technique" on Pan's stick chewing.

Yeah, but NON VIOLENT METHODS DO NOT WORK
for DOG ABUSERS:

Your Training Modality is Driving Your Dogs Crazy

Leah:Is there something wrong with being curious?

Morrison:You're not curious, Leah. IMO, you're just wishy-washy.

Kelley: I don't have the same history that you seem
to have with Leah, but I hardly think being open to
exploring new ideas qualifies as being "wishy-washy".
To me it shows intelligence. But then, from what I've
seen, you've demonstrated a singular kind of black
and-white mentality and a highly ignorant closed-mindedness.

Morrison:You keep thinking that there's some "new"
method out there that will VOILA!, magically transform
you into a great trainer, and overnight, too.

It just doesn't work that way.

Kelley: Actually, that's *exactly* how it worked with me.

Within the first day of using these techniques I went from
becoming a run-of-the-mill dog trainer to being pretty damn
good, if I do say so myself, and all simply by testing the
techniques, just to see if they worked.

I've said from the beginning that if I can get the kind of
amazing results I do when I'm not really a dog trainer at
heart, but a writer, then someone who's really a dog trainer
at heart would become a far better trainer than I am instantly,
just by using these methods.

Somewhere along the line, however, I discovered a dirty
little secret about the mentality of most dog trainers: they
only *became* trainers because they liked the feeling of
power and control it gave them. If that's the case with
you, then you definitely wouldn't like natural dog training
because it ultimately teaches a dog how to control his own
behavior.

In fact in some ways, it forces you to turn your need for
control over to the dog because the method only works
when you put your trust in a dog's natural instincts
instead of fighting against them all the time.

That's because when you put yourself in alignment
with a dog's instincts, the dog will naturally obey
you under any and all circumstances because group
harmony and cooperation, when properly nurtured,
are the most fundamental aspects of a dog's nature.

I came across the following quote recently, and though
I have no idea who Edward Hoagland is, I think what
he says here speaks volumes: "In order to really enjoy
a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semi-human.

The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of
becoming partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland

Leah:This "praise the dog when he misbehaves"
thing keeps coming up, and nobody has been able
to explain it to me.

Morrison:That's because no one can.

Actually, Jerry Howe explains it pretty well.

And as for the incident I related where I praised my
dog when he found a juicy chicken breast and my praise
caused him to drop it, and subsequently got him to stop
scavenging altogether, merely by praising him everytime
he found something, the answer is pretty clear.

He didn't pick up that chicken breast because he was
hungry, he did it because he was looking for something
to do that would satisfy an inner emotional need, relating
to his instincts.

When I praised him, suddenly and very enthusiastically, he
dropped the chicken breast because the praise provided him
with more emotional satisfaction than the chicken breast
did at that particular moment.

You could look at this as being an example of pure
operant conditioning, if you like (though you'd be
wrong), but it would still mean that you would have
to give up your beliefs about what praise is and how
and why it works, and you don't strike me as someone
who's capable of even *questioning* your beliefs, let
alone capable of giving them up.



Morrison:every single method out there is based on CC
and/or OC. That's a fact.

No, it's not a fact. The only reason it seems factual to
you is because the basic premise of behavioral science is
tautological in nature (and also because, IMO, you have a
tiny mind).

In my estimation it's more likely that there are little
green men on Mars than that what you think is operant
conditioning is what's really taking place when a dog
learns *anything*.

Dogs do not learn things by association or by repetition
or by trial and error, but through their emotions, pure
and simple.

Even Pavlov said: "Positive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic
significance at a given moment, serve as the reinforcement."

Of course, even Pavlov got it wrong on the most basic
level, since there really is no such thing as a reinforcement,
but that's another story for another day.

---------------------------

NHOWE GET THE HEEL HOWETA MY FORUMS {}: ~ )