Hi,

I wanted to wait until we had the consultation with the
veterinarian/behaviorist before I posted an update.

Bear has improved some over the past few weeks but it has been slow.
He has gotten better about going outside but it's been a struggle to
get him to come back through the doorway. The first time he came back
in by himself was last week. I had the door propped open for about an
hour before he worked up the nerve to scurry in to his bed. It took
him a lot of tries. He's only come in entirely on his own a couple of
times and it took a lengthy wait with the door propped open each time.

It's gotten kind of odd actually. As I mentioned before we were
picking him up and carrying him in for the first few weeks. In order
to do that we had to basically chase him down (more like a slow walk
really ) until he stopped and froze. Now he will come in on his own
sometimes but we can "herd" him in if we get him between us and the
door as long as it's open.

The strange thing is that if he stops across the yard and around the
house from the door all we have to do is pick him up and set him down
facing towards the house and he will go directly to the door and go
inside. It's like he's getting permission from us to go in.

We did have an incident involving a bite. It was my fault for doing
something stupid. We had him outside and, as we found out, he likes to
dig. We have garden bed fencing around the corners where there is
exposed dirt and it seems to have stopped him.

Anyway, he was outside and he dug up a sprinkler head. I was annoyed
but I didn't yell and tried to not scare him. Fat chance, I'm sure my
body language was aggressive. I tried to pick him up after he froze
and, for the first time, he tried to jump out of my hands when I
started to pick him up. I grabbed him a little harder to stop him from
jumping and he twisted while I was picking him up. According to my
wife a stream of urine went one way and unfortunately one of his
canine teeth went the other way into the base of my neck. He had his
mouth open but he didn't growl, snarl or close his mouth and was
obviously terrified. I sat down on the steps and scratched his neck
and talked calmly to him until he relaxed and then I let him go. I
didn't notice any changes in him towards me afterwards so it appeared
that he got over the scare. I had been putting off getting a tetanus
booster for the past two years so that took a quick trip to the urgent
care clinic on a Friday evening.

The leash is still a no go, as soon as someone touches the end he
locks up.

The vet came out to the house on Thursday for a couple of hours to see
Bear and to discuss how to deal with the fear issues. It was
interesting to talk about what was going on and why Bear was reacting
the way he was. The vet deals a lot with puppy mill cases and abused
rescues. He said that he saw very few that were as extreme as Bear.
He discussed the conditioned fear responses and the learned
helplessness, which causes the freezing in place reaction. As he put
it Bear learned that locking down and not doing anything was the best
survival strategy to minimize the abuse. It's not dissimilar to how
some children deal with abuse.

The most interesting part that we discussed was the lack of any
positive reinforcement methods right now. As he put it, and I agree,
Bear simply isn't getting anything positive from petting, praising,
attention or treats. The main thing he wants is to be left alone. We
left the room and observed him and, as usual, as soon as we cleared
the room his ears went up, his tail went up, he shook himself and
pittered into the kitchen for a drink of water. He bounced up and down
from the couch a few times and generally looked really happy. As soon
as we came back into the room he scurried into his bed. We can give
him a treat but if his anxiety level is above "normal", such as with a
leash, he will ignore it completely. Obviously the treats are a take
or leave it thing for him.

It's hard to manage behavior when you can't reward them except by
going away. But he agreed that there is a really great dog in there
trying to get out based on how Bear acts when he's alone. The trick is
to get him out. The main issue right now is to deal with the
conditioned fear and the high anxiety levels that are always present
when people are around him.

We discussed medications and agreed that for the short term we need to
try them. We are using Lorazepam and Prozac. We are also using a
pheromone collar and body wrapping. We tried the body wrapping when he
was here and Bear responded well to it, which surprised me. We are
keeping everything else the same and maintaining a low pressure
atmosphere around him. We will see how it goes over the next 4 weeks
or so. We are noticing some improvement already in how he is reacting
to things. He is still very skittish but he isn't cringing quite as
much when we pet him. If he continues to improve we'll start looking
at behavior modification and management in 6-8 weeks.

It's going to be a long road for the little guy but we'll make it
together.

In article ,
Jim Manson wrote:


It's going to be a long road for the little guy but we'll make it
together.

Thanks for posting and update Jim. With a dog this fearful, it may
sound odd, but just "being" with him is huge. I think the more you
attempt to use praise, food reward, etc, the more you come off as being
too much for him (as you have already realized, I'm just agreeing).
Just being a body in the same room with him is the most to do for now,
besides the necessities.

Sorry about the bite, but you understand why and how it happened. Fear
is a terrible thing.

I hope you keep posting updates - the good and the mundane. I truly
hope that Bear can blossom under your patient ownership. You've taken
on a difficult task.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

It's very hard to get a fearful dog to trust but it looks like you are
making some headway. The thing is to not give up and keep working on
earning his trust. It may be a long time to get through to him but once you
do it it is the best feeling in the world when you finally see him coming
into his own.

Celeste


"Jim Manson" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I wanted to wait until we had the consultation with the
veterinarian/behaviorist before I posted an update.

Bear has improved some over the past few weeks but it has been slow.
He has gotten better about going outside but it's been a struggle to
get him to come back through the doorway. The first time he came back
in by himself was last week. I had the door propped open for about an
hour before he worked up the nerve to scurry in to his bed. It took
him a lot of tries. He's only come in entirely on his own a couple of
times and it took a lengthy wait with the door propped open each time.

It's gotten kind of odd actually. As I mentioned before we were
picking him up and carrying him in for the first few weeks. In order
to do that we had to basically chase him down (more like a slow walk
really ) until he stopped and froze. Now he will come in on his own
sometimes but we can "herd" him in if we get him between us and the
door as long as it's open.

The strange thing is that if he stops across the yard and around the
house from the door all we have to do is pick him up and set him down
facing towards the house and he will go directly to the door and go
inside. It's like he's getting permission from us to go in.

We did have an incident involving a bite. It was my fault for doing
something stupid. We had him outside and, as we found out, he likes to
dig. We have garden bed fencing around the corners where there is
exposed dirt and it seems to have stopped him.

Anyway, he was outside and he dug up a sprinkler head. I was annoyed
but I didn't yell and tried to not scare him. Fat chance, I'm sure my
body language was aggressive. I tried to pick him up after he froze
and, for the first time, he tried to jump out of my hands when I
started to pick him up. I grabbed him a little harder to stop him from
jumping and he twisted while I was picking him up. According to my
wife a stream of urine went one way and unfortunately one of his
canine teeth went the other way into the base of my neck. He had his
mouth open but he didn't growl, snarl or close his mouth and was
obviously terrified. I sat down on the steps and scratched his neck
and talked calmly to him until he relaxed and then I let him go. I
didn't notice any changes in him towards me afterwards so it appeared
that he got over the scare. I had been putting off getting a tetanus
booster for the past two years so that took a quick trip to the urgent
care clinic on a Friday evening.

The leash is still a no go, as soon as someone touches the end he
locks up.

The vet came out to the house on Thursday for a couple of hours to see
Bear and to discuss how to deal with the fear issues. It was
interesting to talk about what was going on and why Bear was reacting
the way he was. The vet deals a lot with puppy mill cases and abused
rescues. He said that he saw very few that were as extreme as Bear.
He discussed the conditioned fear responses and the learned
helplessness, which causes the freezing in place reaction. As he put
it Bear learned that locking down and not doing anything was the best
survival strategy to minimize the abuse. It's not dissimilar to how
some children deal with abuse.

The most interesting part that we discussed was the lack of any
positive reinforcement methods right now. As he put it, and I agree,
Bear simply isn't getting anything positive from petting, praising,
attention or treats. The main thing he wants is to be left alone. We
left the room and observed him and, as usual, as soon as we cleared
the room his ears went up, his tail went up, he shook himself and
pittered into the kitchen for a drink of water. He bounced up and down
from the couch a few times and generally looked really happy. As soon
as we came back into the room he scurried into his bed. We can give
him a treat but if his anxiety level is above "normal", such as with a
leash, he will ignore it completely. Obviously the treats are a take
or leave it thing for him.

It's hard to manage behavior when you can't reward them except by
going away. But he agreed that there is a really great dog in there
trying to get out based on how Bear acts when he's alone. The trick is
to get him out. The main issue right now is to deal with the
conditioned fear and the high anxiety levels that are always present
when people are around him.

We discussed medications and agreed that for the short term we need to
try them. We are using Lorazepam and Prozac. We are also using a
pheromone collar and body wrapping. We tried the body wrapping when he
was here and Bear responded well to it, which surprised me. We are
keeping everything else the same and maintaining a low pressure
atmosphere around him. We will see how it goes over the next 4 weeks
or so. We are noticing some improvement already in how he is reacting
to things. He is still very skittish but he isn't cringing quite as
much when we pet him. If he continues to improve we'll start looking
at behavior modification and management in 6-8 weeks.

It's going to be a long road for the little guy but we'll make it
together.

Jim Manson wrote:
... We can give
him a treat but if his anxiety level is above "normal", such as with a
leash, he will ignore it completely. Obviously the treats are a take
or leave it thing for him.

It's not so much that the treats are a "take it or leave it", but that his
stress level/anxiety is too high for him to notice the treats. Give it
time (measured in months, not days).

As Janet said, just you being the undemanding, dependable, ever-present
body in the room is probably as much pressure as Bear can take right now.
Dogs, even very damaged dogs, are quite adaptable.

It's going to be a long road for the little guy but we'll make it
together.

Good for you!
--
Mary H. and the restored Ames National Zoo:
The Right Reverand Sir Edgar "Lucky" Pan-Waffles;
U-CD ANZ Babylon Ranger, CD, RE; ANZ Pas de Duke; and rotund Rhia

On 2008-09-16 10:14:30 -0400, Mary Healey said:

It's not so much that the treats are a "take it or leave it", but that his
stress level/anxiety is too high for him to notice the treats.

I wonder whether putting a treat down and walking out of the room might
be a way to make treats enjoyable.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:16:34 -0500, Jim Manson wrote:

[...]
The main thing he wants is to be left alone.

I'd let him have his wish.

[...]
It's going to be a long road for the little guy but we'll make it
together.

I agree with Janet, Jim. You should basically try ignoring him as
much as possible. Little to no eye contact, no loud voices, etc. No
commands, no physical contact (except for the necessities), no treats
(unless he approaches you), etc. Just allow him to do his thing,
while you're going about doing yours.

I'd also try attaching a check cord to his leash whenever you take him
outside. About 15-20 feet long. You can make one with some clothesline
by simply attaching a clip to one end (to attach to his collar). Then
just let him get used to it by dragging it around the yard without you
being out there with him. You can watch him through the window. After
a time, you can start staying out there with him. But don't pick up
the end of the cord. After a little longer, after he's been dragging
the cord around for a few weeks, you can try picking up the tag end.
If he balks, just put it down and calmly walk away.

The secret here is to be PATIENT, and to go slow.

It may take weeks, it may take months, but if, as your vet says,
"there's a really great dog in there" somewhere (and I agree, there
probably is), he'll eventually show himself.

And he'll let you know when he's ready to do that.

Good luck!

And kudos for going the extra mile with this guy!

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

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The NYT (finally!) Discovers The Chicago Annenberg Challenge.
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The two Americas: One likes kids, the other doesn't.
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The Culture War's Decisive Battle has Begun.
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The *Real* Google Agenda. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
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If this doesn't scare the **** out of you, you might be a fascist.
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"Janet Boss" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Manson wrote:


It's going to be a long road for the little guy but we'll make it
together.

Thanks for posting and update Jim. With a dog this fearful, it may
sound odd, but just "being" with him is huge. I think the more you
attempt to use praise, food reward, etc, the more you come off as being
too much for him (as you have already realized, I'm just agreeing).
Just being a body in the same room with him is the most to do for now,
besides the necessities.

Sorry about the bite, but you understand why and how it happened. Fear
is a terrible thing.

I hope you keep posting updates - the good and the mundane. I truly
hope that Bear can blossom under your patient ownership. You've taken
on a difficult task.

This is certainly a much more fearful dog than I have ever encountered, so
I cannot offer much more than encouragement. I saw a lot of improvement
with both Muttley and Lucky, but they certainly had never been neglected
and/or abused as long as Bear had been.

I agree that a great deal of consistency and patience will be necessary for
this pup. It will be important to keep him in an environment where he
cannot get into any mischief that might cause a negative display of
emotion, and allow him to simply experience more freedom and less stress
for a while, in the presence of his new owner.

Paul and Muttley

"Jim Manson" wrote in message
...
It's going to be a long road for the little guy but we'll make it
together.


you deserve a medal, jim

In article ,
Terri wrote:
Your story is an interesting one and I thank you for sharing the progress.

I think it's a wonderful one. It's very hopeful and
provides a pretty bracing antidote to the depressing "my dog
is acting like a dog and is therefore bad" posts. I've
never been in a situation with a dog like that and certainly
don't have advice, but I'm enjoying the posts about him.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Terri said in part...
Bear is fortunate to have found someone so patient and caring. Your
story is an interesting one and I thank you for sharing the process.
______________________________
Jim,
I have kept up with Bear's story and I echo what Terri and others have
said. You are a very special person to take on Bear.
There is no way I can compare my dog Jack's story to Bear but I wanted
to share the highlights just for encouragement.
Jack is a Pit Bull mix, was rescued from an abusive but mostly
neglected situation. I have never seen a dog like him. He was flat, no
eye contact, nothing stimulated him. It was quite painful to watch as I
am sure you know far better than I.
He has been with me for 2 years and oh how he has changed. He has
bright eyes. He gets excited when it is time for a walk. He plays. He
is very obedient. He is still evolving. I have always experienced
outgoing, (sometimes too outgoing) eager dogs, some smarter than others
but all eager for affection. That was not Jack when he came here. That
is Jack now. Again, I am not suggesting that Jack came from anything
close to what Bear has been through but I believe you can see Bear
through. I know you would like to see things move along more quickly
but hang in there.
I am so happy for Bear. He is a lucky dog. Keep on keeping on.


Be Free.....Judy