In article ,
SteveB wrote:
I checked this out on Snopes, and yes, xylitol IS highly toxic to dogs.

Snopes isn't the first, or second, or third, or fourth or
fifth or sixth place I'd check for veterinary advice. In
fact, I bet I'd ask my vet if I had a veterinary question.
Come to think of it, if I didn't know how to get rid of
unwanted vermin I'd probably call an exterminator. Not to
deprive you of the joy of killing animals yourself.

But still, now that Snopes has turned you into an expert,
you know the risks. It's your call.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

I have been in active warfare with resident gophers now for about six weeks.
My wife is getting scared, as it is getting close to Caddy Shack. I have
made a propane/oxygen device that injects it into the burrow and then
detonates it. The dogs head to the bedroom every time I head to the garage,
and the local sheriff has been called on reports of gunshots. (Some of them
really sound more like cannon shots, if you ask me.)

So, I have agreed to a moratorium on the gopher getter for an alternative
method. This involves putting xylitol sweetened gum into the holes of
gophers.

Have any of you had experiences with xylitol ingestion with your dogs? The
gum is put into tunnels underground and there is very little chance of them
digging it up, as they are never left unsupervised in these area.

Still, I wonder. The most they could get is one piece, and that piece is
about 1/4" x 1 1//4". The size of an old piece of Dentine gum.

I checked this out on Snopes, and yes, xylitol IS highly toxic to dogs.

Steve

--
Keep an eye on them or lose them:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,
the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in message
...
I have been in active warfare with resident gophers now for about six
weeks. My wife is getting scared, as it is getting close to Caddy Shack.
I have made a propane/oxygen device that injects it into the burrow and
then detonates it. The dogs head to the bedroom every time I head to the
garage, and the local sheriff has been called on reports of gunshots.
(Some of them really sound more like cannon shots, if you ask me.)

There was a massive fire around here from someone doing exactly that.... I'd
look for another way to do it.


So, I have agreed to a moratorium on the gopher getter for an alternative
method. This involves putting xylitol sweetened gum into the holes of
gophers.

I assume you have a reliable reference to tell you that xylitol is toxic to
gophers?


Have any of you had experiences with xylitol ingestion with your dogs?
The gum is put into tunnels underground and there is very little chance of
them digging it up, as they are never left unsupervised in these area.

Still, I wonder. The most they could get is one piece, and that piece is
about 1/4" x 1 1//4". The size of an old piece of Dentine gum.

I checked this out on Snopes, and yes, xylitol IS highly toxic to dogs.


I was reading some papers on this recently.
How much xylitol is likely to be lethal is going to be dependent on the size
of your dog, and the treatment he receives. As little as 0.15g/kg has been
reported to result in hypoglycemia (which can cause neurological signs).
Hepatic necrosis reported with 1.4-2.0g/kg.

Chewing gum has about 1g/stick.

Its interesting to note though that I did come across a paper from 1973 that
was a controlled study in which *much* higher doses were administered
(8.2--16.75g/kg/day), unfortunately the original article was in German, not
available from my library, and I don't speak German.

I only mention it, as it may not be a cut and dry situation (not to imply
that xylitol might not be toxic). My understanding is that the xylitol
promotes an excess release of insulin, which can lead to hypoglycemia (and
death). Perhaps though if the rate is slow enough, or the amount high
enough, there may be enough xylitol in the system that gets taken up and
metabolized (the abstract does imply that the xylitol is used as energy) to
counteract the hypoglycemia (not that I'm advocating xylitol as a 'cure' for
xylitol poisoning, as there are so many other variables here, and I can't
read the original article, only a translation of the abstract). Just as
likely (or perhaps more likely) is that if the rate of infusion is slow
enough (which would not be the case with eating a stick of gum), the body is
simply able to adapt fast enough to the changing situation and not suffer as
a result (its also possible that they just didn't measure the right things
to detect the problems.)

Dale

References:
-------------------
Title Acute hepatic failure and coagulopathy associated with xylitol
ingestion in eight dogs.

Source Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. American
Veterinary Medical Association, Schaumburg, USA: 2006. 229: 7, 1113-1117. 24
ref.

Abstract Case Description - 8 adult dogs were evaluated for treatment of
lethargy and vomiting after ingestion of xylitol, a sugar alcohol used as a
sweetener in various products. Clinical Findings - In addition to vomiting
and lethargy, 5 of the dogs had widespread petechial, ecchymotic, or
gastrointestinal tract haemorrhages. Common clinicopathological findings
included moderately to severely high serum activities of liver enzymes,
hyperbilirubinaemia, hypoglycaemia, hyperphosphataemia, prolonged clotting
times, and thrombocytopenia. Necropsies were performed on 3 dogs and severe
hepatic necrosis was found in 2. In the third dog, histologic examination
revealed severe hepatocyte loss or atrophy with lobular collapse. Treatment
and Outcome - Treatments varied among dogs and included IV administration of
fluids; plasma transfusions; and, if indicated, administration of dextrose.
Three dogs were euthanatized, 2 dogs died, 2 dogs made a complete recovery,
and 1 dog was recovering but was lost to follow-up. Clinical Relevance -
Although xylitol causes hypoglycaemia in dogs, hepatic failure after
ingestion has not previously been reported. Because an increasing number of
consumer products contain xylitol, clinicians should be aware that ingestion
of xylitol can have serious, life-threatening effects.
---------------------
Meng, HC Anderson, GE The use of xylitol in long-term parenteral nutrition
in dogs. [Journal article] Zeitschrift fur Ernahrungswissenschaft. 1973. 12:
Suppl. 15, 54-68. Five healthy adult dogs were given long-term daily
intravenous infusions of xylitol alone or in combination with amino acids or
protein hydrolysate with vitamins and minerals. The xylitol dosage was 8.2,
10, 14.93 and 16.75 g/kg day at a rate of infusion of 0.35, 0.42, 0.62 and
0.70 g/kg h; xylitol concentration was about 12 to 15%. Xylitol was
apparently well tolerated in small amounts (10 g/kg day or less) and at the
rate of infusion not beyond 0.42 g/kg h. Serum alkaline phosphatases were
increased in all dogs receiving complete parenteral nutrition, except those
given xylitol at 10.0 g/kg day by vein together with a carbohydrate-free
diet. A slight increase in plasma lactate and a slight decrease in blood
pCO2, but no significant change in plasma pyruvate and plasma insulin, were
observed. A slight decrease in blood glucose was found in 2 occasions which
were between 50 to 64 mg/100 ml estimated as total reducing sugars. There
was no significant change in bromsulphalein retention, plasma proteins,
plasma triglyceride and serum bilirubin throughout the experimental periods.
At the low total dosage of 10.0 g/kg day or less urinary loss of xylitol was
about 6 to 7% of the total dose except after prolonged periods of xylitol
administration. Diuretic effect and excessive intake of water were not
encountered during the entire experimental period of 36 days. From N balance
and bodyweight which were maintained or slightly reduced, it was concluded
that intravenously administered xylitol was utilised for energy. It is
recommended that xylitol should be given at a rate no more than 0.35 g/kg h
continuously for 24 h during which time plasma lactate, glucose, insulin and
blood pCO2 and pH should be monitored.
-------------
Title Xylitol, a partial homologue of alpha -D-glucopyranose: potent
stimulator of insulin release in dogs.

Source Endocrinology. 1977. 100: 2, 339-345. 31 ref.

Abstract Xylitol or glucose was given by constant infusion into a systemic
vein in the hind limb of 12 dogs for 50 min in a total dose of 0.7, 1.3 or
4.0 g/kg. Plasma insulin during xylitol infusion was 65, 169 and 175 mu U/ml
and during glucose infusion was 30, 45 and 73 mu U/ml, respectively.
Increases in arterial xylitol were equal to or less than those in glucose.
More xylitol was lost in urine, but the overall uptake of xylitol was at
least 70%; the arterio-venous difference for xylitol across the hind limb
was greater than for glucose, when each was divided by the arterial sugar
concentration. It is suggested that the potency of xylitol in stimulating
both phases of insulin release and its rapid uptake by tissues may result
from its homology with alpha -D-glucopyranose, the alpha -anomer of glucose.
The results support the concept of a glucoreceptor on the surface of the
pancreatic beta cell, with stereospecificity for alpha -D-glucopyranose or
similar molecules.
-----------------
Title Xylitol intoxication associated with fulminant hepatic failure in a
dog.

Source Journal of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care. Blackwell
Publishing, Oxford, UK: 2007. 17: 3, 286-289. 16 ref.

Abstract Objective: To describe a case of xylitol intoxication causing
fulminant hepatic failure in a dog. A 2.5-year-old castrated male English
Springer Spaniel weighing 26 kg, was presented after ingestion of half of a
loaf of bread containing the sweetener xylitol. Toxic effects of the xylitol
in this dog included vomiting, mild hypoglycemia and fulminant hepatic
failure. Clinical management of acute hepatic failure and subsequent
coagulopathy with supportive care and fresh frozen plasma is described. The
dog was discharged 3 days after admission after a full clinical recovery.
New or unique information provided: This paper describes the clinical
consequence and successful treatment of fulminant hepatic failure in a dog
following ingestion of xylitol.

In article ,
SteveB wrote:
Again, there are bad vets, but sooooooooooooo many experts here.

Why do you take your dog to a bad vet? Seriously, if you
can't call up your vet and ask him or her something
like your question about Xylitol, you need a different vet.

I hate two words; should and probably.

That explains rather a lot, I think.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
In article ,
SteveB wrote:
I checked this out on Snopes, and yes, xylitol IS highly toxic to dogs.

Snopes isn't the first, or second, or third, or fourth or
fifth or sixth place I'd check for veterinary advice. In
fact, I bet I'd ask my vet if I had a veterinary question.
Come to think of it, if I didn't know how to get rid of
unwanted vermin I'd probably call an exterminator. Not to
deprive you of the joy of killing animals yourself.

But still, now that Snopes has turned you into an expert,
you know the risks. It's your call.
--
Melinda Shore

Thank you for sharing. I think. Your positive post has certainly started
my day off with a whimper.

Snopes isn't the first, or second, or third, or fourth or
fifth or sixth place I'd check for veterinary advice.

I know, so I wrote here to ask the experts.

In
fact, I bet I'd ask my vet if I had a veterinary question.

Again, there are bad vets, but sooooooooooooo many experts here.

Come to think of it, if I didn't know how to get rid of
unwanted vermin I'd probably call an exterminator.

I hate two words; should and probably.

Not to
deprive you of the joy of killing animals yourself.

I'll ignore that. Please slurp up on that pork chop sandwich you're eating
at the keyboard as we speak. And have one of those turkeys from Palin Farms
this Thursday. And be sure to call your exterminator every time you have a
fly in the house.


But still, now that Snopes has turned you into an expert,
you know the risks.

Oh, good. I'm an expert on ANOTHER subject. I think I'll call Al Franken
and offer my services.

It's your call.

Just like the roomful of monkeys and typewriters, I KNEW you'd type
something lucid.

Steve

PS: I know it's Sunday, but call the pharmacy first thing Monday and get
your meds refilled. Jeezus, did you get a bad serving of fish last night,
or what?

"Dale Atkin" wrote in message
news:1afWk.2728$o15.1784@edtnps83...


"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in message
...
I have been in active warfare with resident gophers now for about six
weeks. My wife is getting scared, as it is getting close to Caddy Shack.
I have made a propane/oxygen device that injects it into the burrow and
then detonates it. The dogs head to the bedroom every time I head to the
garage, and the local sheriff has been called on reports of gunshots.
(Some of them really sound more like cannon shots, if you ask me.)

There was a massive fire around here from someone doing exactly that....
I'd look for another way to do it.


So, I have agreed to a moratorium on the gopher getter for an alternative
method. This involves putting xylitol sweetened gum into the holes of
gophers.

I assume you have a reliable reference to tell you that xylitol is toxic
to gophers?


Have any of you had experiences with xylitol ingestion with your dogs?
The gum is put into tunnels underground and there is very little chance
of them digging it up, as they are never left unsupervised in these area.

Still, I wonder. The most they could get is one piece, and that piece is
about 1/4" x 1 1//4". The size of an old piece of Dentine gum.

I checked this out on Snopes, and yes, xylitol IS highly toxic to dogs.


I was reading some papers on this recently.
How much xylitol is likely to be lethal is going to be dependent on the
size of your dog, and the treatment he receives. As little as 0.15g/kg has
been reported to result in hypoglycemia (which can cause neurological
signs). Hepatic necrosis reported with 1.4-2.0g/kg.

Chewing gum has about 1g/stick.

Its interesting to note though that I did come across a paper from 1973
that was a controlled study in which *much* higher doses were administered
(8.2--16.75g/kg/day), unfortunately the original article was in German,
not available from my library, and I don't speak German.

I only mention it, as it may not be a cut and dry situation (not to imply
that xylitol might not be toxic). My understanding is that the xylitol
promotes an excess release of insulin, which can lead to hypoglycemia (and
death). Perhaps though if the rate is slow enough, or the amount high
enough, there may be enough xylitol in the system that gets taken up and
metabolized (the abstract does imply that the xylitol is used as energy)
to counteract the hypoglycemia (not that I'm advocating xylitol as a
'cure' for xylitol poisoning, as there are so many other variables here,
and I can't read the original article, only a translation of the
abstract). Just as likely (or perhaps more likely) is that if the rate of
infusion is slow enough (which would not be the case with eating a stick
of gum), the body is simply able to adapt fast enough to the changing
situation and not suffer as a result (its also possible that they just
didn't measure the right things to detect the problems.)

Dale

References:
-------------------
Title Acute hepatic failure and coagulopathy associated with xylitol
ingestion in eight dogs.

Source Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. American
Veterinary Medical Association, Schaumburg, USA: 2006. 229: 7, 1113-1117.
24 ref.

Abstract Case Description - 8 adult dogs were evaluated for treatment of
lethargy and vomiting after ingestion of xylitol, a sugar alcohol used as
a sweetener in various products. Clinical Findings - In addition to
vomiting and lethargy, 5 of the dogs had widespread petechial, ecchymotic,
or gastrointestinal tract haemorrhages. Common clinicopathological
findings included moderately to severely high serum activities of liver
enzymes, hyperbilirubinaemia, hypoglycaemia, hyperphosphataemia, prolonged
clotting times, and thrombocytopenia. Necropsies were performed on 3 dogs
and severe hepatic necrosis was found in 2. In the third dog, histologic
examination revealed severe hepatocyte loss or atrophy with lobular
collapse. Treatment and Outcome - Treatments varied among dogs and
included IV administration of fluids; plasma transfusions; and, if
indicated, administration of dextrose. Three dogs were euthanatized, 2
dogs died, 2 dogs made a complete recovery, and 1 dog was recovering but
was lost to follow-up. Clinical Relevance - Although xylitol causes
hypoglycaemia in dogs, hepatic failure after ingestion has not previously
been reported. Because an increasing number of consumer products contain
xylitol, clinicians should be aware that ingestion of xylitol can have
serious, life-threatening effects.
---------------------
Meng, HC Anderson, GE The use of xylitol in long-term parenteral nutrition
in dogs. [Journal article] Zeitschrift fur Ernahrungswissenschaft. 1973.
12: Suppl. 15, 54-68. Five healthy adult dogs were given long-term daily
intravenous infusions of xylitol alone or in combination with amino acids
or protein hydrolysate with vitamins and minerals. The xylitol dosage was
8.2, 10, 14.93 and 16.75 g/kg day at a rate of infusion of 0.35, 0.42,
0.62 and 0.70 g/kg h; xylitol concentration was about 12 to 15%. Xylitol
was apparently well tolerated in small amounts (10 g/kg day or less) and
at the rate of infusion not beyond 0.42 g/kg h. Serum alkaline
phosphatases were increased in all dogs receiving complete parenteral
nutrition, except those given xylitol at 10.0 g/kg day by vein together
with a carbohydrate-free diet. A slight increase in plasma lactate and a
slight decrease in blood pCO2, but no significant change in plasma
pyruvate and plasma insulin, were observed. A slight decrease in blood
glucose was found in 2 occasions which were between 50 to 64 mg/100 ml
estimated as total reducing sugars. There was no significant change in
bromsulphalein retention, plasma proteins, plasma triglyceride and serum
bilirubin throughout the experimental periods. At the low total dosage of
10.0 g/kg day or less urinary loss of xylitol was about 6 to 7% of the
total dose except after prolonged periods of xylitol administration.
Diuretic effect and excessive intake of water were not encountered during
the entire experimental period of 36 days. From N balance and bodyweight
which were maintained or slightly reduced, it was concluded that
intravenously administered xylitol was utilised for energy. It is
recommended that xylitol should be given at a rate no more than 0.35 g/kg
h continuously for 24 h during which time plasma lactate, glucose, insulin
and blood pCO2 and pH should be monitored.
-------------
Title Xylitol, a partial homologue of alpha -D-glucopyranose: potent
stimulator of insulin release in dogs.

Source Endocrinology. 1977. 100: 2, 339-345. 31 ref.

Abstract Xylitol or glucose was given by constant infusion into a systemic
vein in the hind limb of 12 dogs for 50 min in a total dose of 0.7, 1.3 or
4.0 g/kg. Plasma insulin during xylitol infusion was 65, 169 and 175 mu
U/ml and during glucose infusion was 30, 45 and 73 mu U/ml, respectively.
Increases in arterial xylitol were equal to or less than those in glucose.
More xylitol was lost in urine, but the overall uptake of xylitol was at
least 70%; the arterio-venous difference for xylitol across the hind limb
was greater than for glucose, when each was divided by the arterial sugar
concentration. It is suggested that the potency of xylitol in stimulating
both phases of insulin release and its rapid uptake by tissues may result
from its homology with alpha -D-glucopyranose, the alpha -anomer of
glucose. The results support the concept of a glucoreceptor on the surface
of the pancreatic beta cell, with stereospecificity for
alpha -D-glucopyranose or similar molecules.
-----------------
Title Xylitol intoxication associated with fulminant hepatic failure in a
dog.

Source Journal of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care. Blackwell
Publishing, Oxford, UK: 2007. 17: 3, 286-289. 16 ref.

Abstract Objective: To describe a case of xylitol intoxication causing
fulminant hepatic failure in a dog. A 2.5-year-old castrated male English
Springer Spaniel weighing 26 kg, was presented after ingestion of half of
a loaf of bread containing the sweetener xylitol. Toxic effects of the
xylitol in this dog included vomiting, mild hypoglycemia and fulminant
hepatic failure. Clinical management of acute hepatic failure and
subsequent coagulopathy with supportive care and fresh frozen plasma is
described. The dog was discharged 3 days after admission after a full
clinical recovery. New or unique information provided: This paper
describes the clinical consequence and successful treatment of fulminant
hepatic failure in a dog following ingestion of xylitol.

Thank you for a very well written informative emotion free answer to the
question. The areas where I have gophers are areas where I do not allow my
dogs unless I am with them. Still, I wanted to ask the group, as this is a
known place for experts of all levels to hang out.

I believe that I will continue to use the blaster in the dog yard areas, and
keep trying the xylitol in the other farm and ranch areas until it can be
determined how it works.

Thanks again for the great answer.

BTW, yes, I did see the Canadian guys who burned up a nice piece of real
estate with one of these.

Steve

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
In article ,
SteveB wrote:
Again, there are bad vets, but sooooooooooooo many experts here.

Why do you take your dog to a bad vet? Seriously, if you
can't call up your vet and ask him or her something
like your question about Xylitol, you need a different vet.

I hate two words; should and probably.

That explains rather a lot, I think.
--
Melinda Shore

Yes. I disdain manipulative people who make a habit of using those terms.

And I'll ask my vet the next time he comes to dinner. He's a very good
friend.

Steve

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
In article ,
SteveB wrote:
Again, there are bad vets, but sooooooooooooo many experts here.

Why do you take your dog to a bad vet? Seriously, if you
can't call up your vet and ask him or her something
like your question about Xylitol, you need a different vet.

Just one comment about this... I wouldn't trust my vet as final arbiter for
something like this. As early as a couple of weeks ago, my vet would have
answered 'hmmmm... I'm not sure. Let me check around.' and none of them
would have known (I did know, but they didn't). This is why I was looking up
some journal articles on it (to find them toxic doses etc.). Xylitol isn't
*that* common of an artificial sweetener up here (although it is used). The
first time they came across it was when a client dog reported to the
emergency clinic with xylitol intoxication.

I find snopes pretty good as a first point of call for a lot of this kind of
stuff. If its on there, you know they've done their best to research it. If
I want more information, then I head to the journals. If I wasn't sure
about what I'd found, I'd call the vet, and say "I've been trying to figure
out how bad xylitol is for dogs. I've found X,Y,Z that says it is, but I'm
having trouble interpreting. Can you help?"

Dale

In article DryWk.3028$o15.2902@edtnps83,
Dale Atkin wrote:
Just one comment about this... I wouldn't trust my vet as final arbiter for
something like this.

But you'd trust a bunch of random crackpots on Usenet? Huh.

I find snopes pretty good as a first point of call for a lot of this kind of
stuff. If its on there, you know they've done their best to research it. If
I want more information, then I head to the journals.

Okay, so you trust random untrained laypeople on Usenet more
than your vet and you go to Snopes before going to the
literature. Or, for that matter, before going to one of the
large number of pet owner-oriented veterinary websites that
answer those kinds of questions in some detail.

I love to see the scientific mind at work.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

"SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas wrote in
:

And I'll ask my vet the next time he comes to dinner. He's a very
good friend.

But apparently a bad vet. Personally, I'd look for a vet I could
trust to answer these sorts of questions, instead of asking a bunch
of random strangers on the innertubes.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)