The first class for Murphy's dog training (the orientation) was on this past
Tuesday, 1/20. I think I had an erroneous date on a previous post. I'm
happy so far with the philosophy, which is establishing the people as alpha
rather than rewards-based. I was a little distressed at the number of dogs
in the class...22. Is that a lot?

It seems like a good outfit, though, and the instructor, Theresa, seems
knowledgeable and passionate. Here is the link to their website, if anybody
is inclined to weigh in on their training style:

http://www.dogservicesunlimited.com/

I will post again after Murphy has *his* first class next week. Their is a
contest at the end, and I want to win! Not sure how realistic that is, as
the class is roughly thirds of puppies (Murphy included), adolescents and
adults.

"Wingnut" wrote in message
...
The first class for Murphy's dog training (the orientation) was on this
past Tuesday, 1/20. I think I had an erroneous date on a previous post.
I'm happy so far with the philosophy, which is establishing the people as
alpha rather than rewards-based. I was a little distressed at the number
of dogs in the class...22. Is that a lot?

It seems like a good outfit, though, and the instructor, Theresa, seems
knowledgeable and passionate. Here is the link to their website, if
anybody is inclined to weigh in on their training style:

http://www.dogservicesunlimited.com/

I will post again after Murphy has *his* first class next week. Their is
a contest at the end, and I want to win! Not sure how realistic that is,
as the class is roughly thirds of puppies (Murphy included), adolescents
and adults.

I would think that 22 dogs and handlers is a lot. The class I attended with
Muttley had about 12 dogs and handlers, and had 2 or 3 instructors and
assistants. Even with that ratio, those responsible for the class were
unable to see me struggling with an awkward attempt at enforcing a command,
and by the time they (and I) had time to react, my dog had attacked and
injured another dog, who was a young adolescent (described as a puppy for
dramatic effect).

The web site does not describe specific training methods. I think some work
better than others, and it depends on the disposition of the dog and the
owner. I have been reading about various philosophies of dog training,
including http://www.leecharleskelley.com/lcksbloglinks.html, and the
"Koehler Method of Dog Training". I have also read "Katz on Dogs", and
other books. The most important concept I have gleaned from all of this so
far, is that the dog must first fully understand what is expected, and the
training method must be fully effective and consistent.

According to Kelley, there are some flaws in the Alpha theory, and such
hierarchy is only observed with wolves and dogs in captivity. Basically,
dogs instinctively want to chase prey and use their teeth to bring it down,
and much of their play with other dogs (and their handlers) is based on
this desire. Play is very important for directing energy into appropriate
channels, and to develop a good rapport with the owner.

Thus, training should be fun, and not stressful for either the dog or the
handler. If basic skills are not solidly learned, it is counterproductive
to push ahead to the point where animal and human are both frustrated and
lacking communication.

Good luck.

Paul and Muttley

"Wingnut" wrote in message
...
The first class for Murphy's dog training (the orientation) was on this
past Tuesday, 1/20. I think I had an erroneous date on a previous post.
I'm happy so far with the philosophy, which is establishing the people as
alpha rather than rewards-based.

No comment, other than wonder a) more precisely what "establishing the
people as alpha" means and b) why any trainer would disregard one of the
most powerful teaching tools - for ANY species.
I'm not PP by a long shot, but ALL animals - including humans - learn
best when praised and rewarded for good performance rather than only being
told what they do wrong... nobody works without pay unless they love their
job so much they'd do it anyway. (Which is the basis of drive training; you
start out rewarding the dog, but use drive to CREATE the job itself being
rewarding.)


I was a little distressed at the number of dogs in the class...22. Is
that a lot?

Possibly. It depends on the size of the teaching area, the skill of the
teacher, how well s/he has screened the student teams (dog+handler=team),
and/or the number and skill of the teacher assistant(s), if any.
Also, odds are very slim that there will be 22 dogs at the end of the class
schedule - in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the teams which came
to orientation don't show up for the first real class. Attrition tends to
be steep in beginner classes, as the humans realize that THEY are going to
have to do the real work and training, change their way of interacting with
the dog, and keep it up every day, to see real results. (

When I took Rocsi, my Jack Russell, to puppy kindergarten, we started out
with about 17 teams; by the end of the 10-week session, I think we had 6.
Attrition is often even higher for beginner agility classes - when Morag's
(my lurcher) started agility, the class began with *30* teams, ended up with
something like 12. (That class was run with one main instructor and 2-3
assistants.) Cenau, my current terrier (JRT x Zwergpinscher) started
beginning agility in September... we started out with 10 dogs and 11 humans
(one husband and wife came together); at the end of the 10-week session TWO
teams remained; myself and another long-time competitor.


It seems like a good outfit, though, and the instructor, Theresa, seems
knowledgeable and passionate. Here is the link to their website, if
anybody is inclined to weigh in on their training style:

http://www.dogservicesunlimited.com/

There's actually nothing on that website about their training *style*....
mostly it's well-packaged marketing, with a page of testimonials.
Personally, I'd be a bit leery of any outfit that concurrently runs 160
classes in 100 locations, and tries to "do it all", but would reserve
judgement until I'd SEEN classes.
I do like the way they explain the practical uses of the obedience
commands, and for their "crash course" spell out clearly the time
committment at home that's required.




I will post again after Murphy has *his* first class next week. Their is
a contest at the end, and I want to win!

A mock obdience trial?

"sionnach" spoke these words of wisdom in
:

There's actually nothing on that website about their training *style*....
mostly it's well-packaged marketing, with a page of testimonials.
Personally, I'd be a bit leery of any outfit that concurrently runs 160
classes in 100 locations, and tries to "do it all", but would reserve
judgement until I'd SEEN classes.

The class size to me was disturbing. But i have no idea how much working
space was actually available. And I'm well aware of attrition.
However, there are many times that all of the students that started my
class also finished the course. So you can't bank on attrition.

Because we have once a week classes, our instructors make themselves
available for during the week support. We also have one assistant
instructor per student. I think that pressures the student to be there,
knowing they WILL be missed.

Your concerns are valid, but I'm also relieved to know it's not PETSMART or
PETCO training classes. The fact that there are 100 locations makes me
wonder if they are in-the-can curriculums.

"elegy" wrote:

wow. i've never experienced that. i've done a lot of beginner and
lower level classes and i don't think we've had more than one team
drop out of any one class.

Agility only, or does that include obedience & rally? Just curious.

in beginner agility they only take six
teams, and we didn't have anybody drop.

Question - again, out of curiosity/interest - how many of the humans were
new to the club and/or to agility?

7 of the 10 teams in Cenau's class had human agility newbies, although
some had done obedience with the same instructor. Most of them dropped out
after 2-3 sessions. With 5 of them, it was fairly obvious they'd had
expectations that the dogs would be jumping/running etc. right away, hadn't
realized how much of it was *human* training, and/or weren't willing to put
in the time at home on foundation work.
1 dropped out due to human illness... which was just as well since the
dog, a male BC mix, had taken a dislike to a classmate. No harm ever done,
but nasty BC-type bossy lunging and snapping, which was unnerving to the
other dog. The humans were not tuned in well & were having trouble managing
it, despite several cautions & assistance from the instructor. (This was the
same team that showed up for the first class without a leash, saying "Oh, we
remembered everything on the list but we forgot his leash". eek!)
1 dropped out because her dog, a rescue Berner, wasn't really up to a
group class... too shy of all the strange humans.

The 8th person is an experienced flyball and agility competitor. She dropped
out mid-session because AFIK she was getting too frustrated with her
9-month-old Lab's lack of ability to focus on anything other than his
littermate/playmate who was also in the class - she'll probably re-start in
a different session.

With Cen, incidentally, I've changed instructors/clubs; my original club
does tend to have larger classes, plus their training area isn't
terrier-proof.

With Morag's class, at my original club, the huge size was a fluke - we had
a large number of existing members whose new dogs were ready for Intro, plus
a large group of newbies who'd filled the official waiting list. The class
was well-managed, but even so the main instructor ruled the size a mistake
because even with assistants, it was too hard to keep track. Of all the
newbies in that class, I think we retained ONE.


PLUS it means i can take steve to three classes this
week for the same money as if i were only taking him to one, which is
freaking awesome.

I'll say! I couldn't do that even if my current very small club could run
classes that way; it's over 30 miles away. Which is why I broke down a
couple of weeks ago and invested in a set of real weave poles and some weave
wires....

diddy wrote:
"sionnach" spoke these words of wisdom in
:

There's actually nothing on that website about their training *style*....
mostly it's well-packaged marketing, with a page of testimonials.
Personally, I'd be a bit leery of any outfit that concurrently runs 160
classes in 100 locations, and tries to "do it all", but would reserve
judgement until I'd SEEN classes.

The class size to me was disturbing. But i have no idea how much working
space was actually available. And I'm well aware of attrition.
However, there are many times that all of the students that started my
class also finished the course. So you can't bank on attrition.
I agree.

I'm also wondering if some of those that
left, ended up leaving *because* they felt
they were getting lost in the shuffle.

When I taught groups, We'd start with a
maximum of 10-12 (with at least 1 assistant
for the first two classes). Rarely did we
finish with less than 7-8.

Because we have once a week classes, our instructors make themselves
available for during the week support. We also have one assistant
instructor per student. I think that pressures the student to be there,
knowing they WILL be missed.

That is a VERY high Asst. to student rate.

Yeah, I'd be afraid to not show up too!

Your concerns are valid, but I'm also relieved to know it's not PETSMART or
PETCO training classes. The fact that there are 100 locations makes me
wonder if they are in-the-can curriculums.

Yikes.

In article , diddy none
wrote:


The class size to me was disturbing. But i have no idea how much working
space was actually available. And I'm well aware of attrition.
However, there are many times that all of the students that started my
class also finished the course. So you can't bank on attrition.

Attrition with my classes seems very dependent on weather
issues/seasons. Since we teach outdoors, postponements result in more
attrition, So, if we get lucky with weather, we retain more students.

Interesting thing about attrition, as I've had the conversation with
several other instructors/trainers. People tend to fall into a few
categories - they got what they wanted quickly (some semblance of
control) and didn't feel they needed to continue; they failed to do the
work and were embarrassed to come to class again; they decided it was
more work than they could handle and either gave up or gave up the dog;
they had a particularly difficult dog and just got frustrated.

I have very low attrition rates and work hard at that. I want people to
come to me if they are having difficulty. I have a current student who
keeps apologizing for her frantic e-mails. I told her that is what I'm
available for. I'm thrilled when someone truly wants to solve a problem!

My current class that started this month has 17 handler(s)/dog combos.
There are 3-4 instructors. About a third have been in our puppy classes
already, so we know each other and the dogs have some basics under their
belt. A nice group of dogs and people for the most part, which is
always a pleasure.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"elegy" wrote:

of all of them, from beginner beginner obedience to foundations
agility to rally. the biggest class i was in was rally 2 and that had
ten teams, and we had a couple teams who didn't come every week, but
nobody vanished.

Interesting! I wonder what causes the difference?


to get into agility at this club you have to be a member, which means
you have to have completed one obedience class of whatever level. in
our foundations agility class, we had two handlers who'd been through
it before and weren't passed on to the next level and four who were
new.

That's a fairly common practice, and I don't disgree with it, but it shuts
out people who are good enough dog owners/trainers not to need basic
obedience. Admittedly such are a minority! The groups I've worked with
*primarily* draw agility students from other training classes, but also
allow some total newbies based on interviewing and/or testing.


*blush* i almost did that with steve last night. i left work early,
ran home, cut up the treats that i forgot to cut up in advance, got
his target, his tug, his mat, and him and almost forgot his leash.
that would have been embarrassing! since i have an attached garage and
he rides in a crate, i don't leash him to get him into the car.

Yabbut... you wouldn't have then proceeded to walk into an open area, where
other teams were already gathered, with Steve running ahead of you off
leash. Admittedly the dog wasn't out-of-control running, but the owners
seemed to think it was perfectly OK to bring him in off leash like that.
Needless to say they were stopped, asked to hold the dog, and given a leash
to use.


i would hate being in a huge class. especially since i tend toward
reactive dogs.

Even with a fair amount of space, it was less than ideal with Mw, given her
boss-bitch tendencies; there was one dog in the class that she disliked for
the rest of her life due to his rude behaviour in class.


yeah. the place where i take upper level obedience and agility is a
good half hour drive. i did two classes last session, and it really
wore on me.

I can relate - I had classes 35 miles away on two different nights for two
extended periods (once when I added Morag, and once when I added Rocsi), and
it nearly burnt me out both times.
It was MUCH easier during the 2 years I drove 50 miles to PA *one* night
a week, and ran all my dogs in succession. (It was open practice, with a
course set and advice if wanted, rather than a formal class.)


steve's puppy class is with a trainer who just teaches pet
classes, but she's really nice and she's flexible and she's ten
minutes from my house.

*Perfect* for a baby buppy!

she has a reactive pit x as a brand new beginner student and he was in
our beginner class on wednesday. i was absolutely THRILLED with how
she managed him. she had him at the far end of the room behind ring
gates that she covered so he couldn't see the rest of class. they were
able to participate in class but on a level that their dog could
handle. the rest of us didn't push him over the edge and he didn't
disrupt us. that was what my first trainer did for luce and i and i

Excellent set-up.

"Janet Boss" wrote:

Attrition with my classes seems very dependent on weather
issues/seasons. Since we teach outdoors, postponements result in more
attrition, So, if we get lucky with weather, we retain more students.

nod nod... Weather definitely was an added factor with the attrition in
Cen's Intro class; this year's been brutal, as you know!

Janet Boss wrote:



Interesting thing about attrition, as I've had the conversation with
several other instructors/trainers. People tend to fall into a few
categories - they got what they wanted quickly (some semblance of
control) and didn't feel they needed to continue; they failed to do the
work and were embarrassed to come to class again; they decided it was
more work than they could handle and either gave up or gave up the dog;
they had a particularly difficult dog and just got frustrated.

We teach John Q Public and the attrition rate varies, but it can be
fairly high for the most basic classes (Pet Manners 1 and Agility
Foundations). Most of our attritions are in the "too embarrassed to come
back to class" and the "more work than they expected" category. For a
lot of people, if they come to class and their dog isn't the star, they
just give up. We work hard on attrition and once they get past that
first class, our attrition rate is very low.

Oh and our classes are limited to 8 dog and handler teams with 2
instructors.