Hi! I am in the process of attempting to litter box train two Shih
Tzus, brothers, who are 11 months old. They are partially outdoor
trained, but I have had some back problems over the past year and
finally realized that picking them up and getting them down my steps
and outside quickly was just not working very well.

They are partially outdoor trained (is partially trained like being a
little pregnant?). Truth is they aren't really housebroken very well
at all. They sleep in their crate at night and then I take them
outside in the morning where they usually go right away outside. (One
absolutely loves going in the crate at night and jumps right in, while
the other one hesitates, which always makes me feel really guilty. I
would really like to get them fully house-trained so that they can
roam the whole house and sleep with us at night.)

So, they are used to going outdoors. I've got the kitchen area
confined with a baby gate, and the kitchen is really very big, so they
spend a lot of their time in there and then I just clean up after
them. I spend a whole lot of time mopping my kitchen floor, which is
a big drag, but it still far easier on my back than actually picking
them up and carrying them outside. (Their upstairs crate is actually
on a big sit in windowsill so that I can pick them up from a higher
level. One will jump out of the crate and go right down the stairs in
the morning on his own and the other one needs to be carried ~ despite
repeated attempts to coax him to walk down the steps on his own, but
that's another issue.)

This morning I tried the litter box for the first time. I watched
them and when they started to go I said, "NO" loudly and then picked
them up and put them in the box. Picking them up directly off the
floor has actually been kind of difficult for me to do because of my
back, so I'm thinking maybe of putting them into their harnesses and
attaching them to leashes to that I could just lead them into the box?

I know it is a difficult situation and I will also say that getting
rid of them is not an option. I've got a couple of books, but, as you
can tell, I've been kind of clueless about applying what I've read.

Any info/advice would be very much appreciated! Please don't laugh too
loudly at my awful attempts so far!

In article
,
diana wrote:

One will jump out of the crate and go right down the stairs in
the morning on his own and the other one needs to be carried ~ despite
repeated attempts to coax him to walk down the steps on his own, but
that's another issue.)

This morning I tried the litter box for the first time. I watched
them and when they started to go I said, "NO" loudly and then picked
them up and put them in the box. Picking them up directly off the
floor has actually been kind of difficult for me to do because of my
back, so I'm thinking maybe of putting them into their harnesses and
attaching them to leashes to that I could just lead them into the box?

Why not just use your lead to lead them outdoors instead?

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On Feb 18, 8:55*am, Janet Boss
wrote:
In article
,

*diana wrote:
One will jump out of the crate and go right down the stairs in
the morning on his own and the other one needs to be carried ~ despite
repeated attempts to coax him to walk down the steps on his own, but
that's another issue.)

This morning I tried the litter box for the first time. *I watched
them and when they started to go I said, "NO" loudly and then picked
them up and put them in the box. *Picking them up directly off the
floor has actually been kind of difficult for me to do because of my
back, so I'm thinking maybe of putting them into their harnesses and
attaching them to leashes to that I could just lead them into the box?

Why not just use your lead to lead them outdoors instead?

--
Janet Bosswww.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Hi, Janet! That's a good idea! One thing, though is that where we
live, I don't always feel safe going out alone with them after dark,
so I thought if I got them litter box trained it might be better.
Still, maybe I could use the lead to at least take them outside during
the day. So far, they show no interest in the litter box ~ they just
jump right out of it.

In article
,
diana wrote:


Hi, Janet! That's a good idea! One thing, though is that where we
live, I don't always feel safe going out alone with them after dark,
so I thought if I got them litter box trained it might be better.
Still, maybe I could use the lead to at least take them outside during
the day. So far, they show no interest in the litter box ~ they just
jump right out of it.

Floodlights and flashlights! Honestly, it is very confusing to dogs to
mix the rules. With 2, you've got even more work cut out for you.
Every time they are allowed to eliminate in the house, it cements that
behavior. In short, don't let them do that. Schedule their meals,
confinement, outings, supervision. Pick an outdoor place close to the
house that you can have illuminated. You'll really be a lot happier in
the long run, and your dogs less confused.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On Feb 18, 9:13*am, Janet Boss
wrote:
In article
,

*diana wrote:

Hi, Janet! That's a good idea! One thing, though is that where we
live, I don't always feel safe going out alone with them after dark,
so I thought if I got them litter box trained it might be better.
Still, maybe I could use the lead to at least take them outside during
the day. *So far, they show no interest in the litter box ~ they just
jump right out of it.

Floodlights and flashlights! *Honestly, it is very confusing to dogs to
mix the rules. *With 2, you've got even more work cut out for you. *
Every time they are allowed to eliminate in the house, it cements that
behavior. *In short, don't let them do that. *Schedule their meals,
confinement, outings, supervision. *Pick an outdoor place close to the
house that you can have illuminated. *You'll really be a lot happier in
the long run, and your dogs less confused.

--
Janet Bosswww.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Thanks, Janet! I think I will do that. They have a large, fenced in
pen area but I could definitely have it moved close to the front door.
I was thinking about going back to the crate training and then taking
them outside, but the schedules I have seen are for puppies of about
three months of age. I was worried that it might be cruel to leave
them in their crate again for such long periods of time during the
day?

In article
,
diana wrote:


Thanks, Janet! I think I will do that. They have a large, fenced in
pen area but I could definitely have it moved close to the front door.
I was thinking about going back to the crate training and then taking
them outside, but the schedules I have seen are for puppies of about
three months of age. I was worried that it might be cruel to leave
them in their crate again for such long periods of time during the
day?

Depending on YOUR schedule, they needn't be crated for long periods,
only when you cannot supervise. That means either not leaving them free
in the kitchen, or spending all of YOUR time in the kitchen WITH them so
you can watch them.

I never do the kitchen thing. Puppies have free roam from day one, WITH
me. With two (and a big reasons that littermate acquisition is a really
bad idea), that is a LOT harder. That means that they will probably
need more confinement than ideal, at least initially. Do you know what
an "x-pen" is? If they will respect one and keep it clean, you can pen
them in one together when you can't be supervising. Not as confining as
a crate, they can play together, but they don't have the whole kitchen
in which to eliminate.

If you are more or less home during the day, I would probably set up
some sort of schedule like - get up, take out, feed, take out, hang out
with them for an hour, take out, confine for an hour, take out, 2 hours
free (supervised), take out, either confine for another hour or 2 or
continue to supervise, etc. If 2 people are home in the evenings, they
should be out with you and closely supervised, taken out every 1-1.5
hours.

Basically, you have to go back to square one a bit. They should be
taken out every time the wake up, after meals, and every 2 hours
minimally during their waking time, to give a lot of opportunities for
praise for doing the right thing. Supervision is really the big answer
though, no matter what you decide.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On Feb 18, 9:29*am, Janet Boss
wrote:
In article
,

*diana wrote:

Thanks, Janet! I think I will do that. *They have a large, fenced in
pen area but I could definitely have it moved close to the front door.
I was thinking about going back to the crate training and then taking
them outside, but the schedules I have seen are for puppies of about
three months of age. I was worried that it might be cruel to leave
them in their crate again for such long periods of time during the
day?

Depending on YOUR schedule, they needn't be crated for long periods,
only when you cannot supervise. *That means either not leaving them free
in the kitchen, or spending all of YOUR time in the kitchen WITH them so
you can watch them. *

I never do the kitchen thing. *Puppies have free roam from day one, WITH
me. *With two (and a big reasons that littermate acquisition is a really
bad idea), that is a LOT harder. * *That means that they will probably
need more confinement than ideal, at least initially. *Do you know what
an "x-pen" is? *If they will respect one and keep it clean, you can pen
them in one together when you can't be supervising. *Not as confining as
a crate, they can play together, but they don't have the whole kitchen
in which to eliminate. *

If you are more or less home during the day, I would probably set up
some sort of schedule like - get up, take out, feed, take out, hang out
with them for an hour, take out, *confine for an hour, take out, 2 hours
free (supervised), take out, either confine for another hour or 2 or
continue to supervise, etc. *If 2 people are home in the evenings, they
should be out with you and closely supervised, taken out every 1-1.5
hours. *

Basically, you have to go back to square one a bit. *They should be
taken out every time the wake up, after meals, and every 2 hours
minimally during their waking time, to give a lot of opportunities for
praise for doing the right thing. * Supervision is really the big answer
though, no matter what you decide.

--
Janet Bosswww.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Thank you so much, Janet! That's very helpful! I just now took them
out of their crate and outside, and instead of doing their business, I
just stood their and waited for them so that I could give them a treat
when they did the right thing. So, they stood there and looked at me
for a long time. I went to another part of the yard where they
couldn't see me and then one of them finally started to pee and I came
out and gave him a treat, which he took and then dropped, and then the
one who hadn't peed picked it up and ate it himself.

Would you recommend my taking them out one at a time and then doing
the treat thing as a reward? Or, would it be better just to watch them
when they start to go and then take them right outside?

Sorry to be asking so many questions! I really have been clueless
about this whole thing. I really appreciate your help, though!

"diana" wrote in message
...

Would you recommend my taking them out one at a time and then doing
the treat thing as a reward?

If it were me, I'd probably take them out together sometimes and alone
other times. I'd also upgrade to a better treat. And the dog gets to
decide what "better" is. For something like this, I want a treat that
the dog is eager to eat, so he wouldn't drop it in the first place. If
he doesn't eat it immediately, it isn't much of a reward, is it?

And depending on the dog(s), I'd probably keep them leashed until they
have a pretty good grasp of what's expected of them when they go
outside. I want my dog to potty immediately, not waste time sniffing
around or staring off into space. Off-leash fun time comes *after*
pottying.

Or, would it be better just to watch them
when they start to go and then take them right outside?

I would not wait until they start to go indoors.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

In article ,
"Shelly" wrote:


I would not wait until they start to go indoors.

--

I agree with what Shelly wrote. Thanks for saving me some more typing S!

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On Feb 18, 9:52*am, "Shelly" wrote:
"diana" wrote in message

...

Would you recommend my taking them out one at a time and then doing
the treat thing as a reward?

If it were me, I'd probably take them out together sometimes and alone
other times. *I'd also upgrade to a better treat. *And the dog gets to
decide what "better" is. *For something like this, I want a treat that
the dog is eager to eat, so he wouldn't drop it in the first place. *If
he doesn't eat it immediately, it isn't much of a reward, is it?

And depending on the dog(s), I'd probably keep them leashed until they
have a pretty good grasp of what's expected of them when they go
outside. *I want my dog to potty immediately, not waste time sniffing
around or staring off into space. *Off-leash fun time comes *after*
pottying.

Or, would it be better just to watch them
when they start to go and then take them right outside?

I would not wait until they start to go indoors.

--
Shellyhttp://www.cat-sidh.net(the Mother Ship)http://esther.cat-sidh.net(Letters to Esther)

Thank you so much, Janet and Shelly! This is so, so helpful to me! I
hope you don't mind my asking a couple more questions. And, please
don't feel obligated to answer because you both have helped me already
so, so much ~ what you are saying makes soooo much sense, and as I
read, I keep thinking, "A-ha, why didn't I think of that?"

I will definitely get some more of those "Bacon Bacon Bacon" treats
because they really seem to love those the most, far more than what I
tried to give them this morning, the Scooby snacks, which, you are
right Shelly, they are kind of lukewarm about them.

1. Should I wait outside with them to do their business, even if they
just sit and watch me back at first?

2. Is it safe to leave their harnesses (without the leashes) if they
are in their crate?

3. I will attempt to take them out together and separately. One
brother in particular gets upset if he is separated from his sibling,
and I think that they might be a tad codependent, but if I separate
them for short periods of time, maybe they'll learn it's okay?

4. Should I try to emphasize the crate training part of it so that I
don't have to wait until they squat? It's a bit of a trek from the
kitchen to the outside, but maybe if I just keep their leashes on them
and lead them quickly, saying, "OUTSIDE", they'll get the hang of it?