This is mostly a rant, but advice is also welcome.

An acquaintance of mine is talking about giving up a healthy but ill-
behaved 1.5yo rottie to get another dog because the rottie is so poorly
behaved. The likely result will be an abandoned dog who will never see
adoption (rotties are very unpopular here), and another dog becoming
badly behaved and abandoned due to ineffective "treat training".

I'll define "treat training" because last time I used the term I got the
feeling from one poster that it is used here (in my small town)
differently than others may be familiar with.

"Treat training" is a method where no physical correction of a dog is
permitted, in any circumstance. Dogs (even young pups) are subjected to
long, repetitive training sessions where a command is given, then
rewarded with a treat, over and over for 30-60 minutes, even if the dog
"got it" long ago and has since lost all interest. If the dog refuses to
follow a command when given, the treats come back out to bribe
compliance. If the dog still disobeys, the treat offering increases to
gain compliance, or the dog gets his way.

Naturally, this leads to a dog who ignores commands and runs the house.
This one is particularly bad with pulling on his leash, jumping on
everyone (including their two small children), begging for or just
stealing people's food, acting aggressively toward strangers, pushing the
humans off "his" couch, and so on.

So, I'm trying to convince the family that changing how they interact
with their dog (this is their first dog) will change how the dog acts
toward them, and that the relationship can be saved if they are willing
to do what it takes. Unfortunately, their vet, friends and family, and
big box pet store dweebs are telling them they are perfect doggie parents
and this is just a difficult pooch from a difficult breed.

I asked them to first start by taking the dog to my vet (who is not an
idiot), and they are thinking about it. Professional training is out
because "treat training" is the going thing here, and I was unsuccessful
in finding a local trainer for my dobe who doesn't advocate this method.

I'm hoping that with the input of a good vet, I can convince them that
treat training is the problem, not the dog, and get them to try more
effective methods. They think that any physical correction is "mean" and
don't want to even think about it.

I haven't responded to them since emailing them back that they should
give my vet a try -- make sure he's healthy and get some experienced
input. I wanted to share the DVDs I bought for my parents with them, but
the company failed to caption the videos and the wife/mom in that family
is deaf. I'm going to look for a good book instead.

I plan to try to show them how I would work with the dog, but a book or
properly captioned DVD would be good back-up. I don't want to be too
blunt in explaining how they caused all of this (lest they blow me off
entirely), but I also want them to understand that they can change it.

So, book recommendations anyone? Good arguments? Commiseration?

--Susan the Frustrated

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:44:31 +0000, Susan wrote:
snip
I'll define "treat training" because last time I used the term I got the
feeling from one poster that it is used here (in my small town)
differently than others may be familiar with.

"Treat training" is a method where no physical correction of a dog is
permitted, in any circumstance. Dogs (even young pups) are subjected to
long, repetitive training sessions where a command is given, then
rewarded with a treat, over and over for 30-60 minutes, even if the dog
"got it" long ago and has since lost all interest. If the dog refuses
to follow a command when given, the treats come back out to bribe
compliance. If the dog still disobeys, the treat offering increases to
gain compliance, or the dog gets his way.
snip

I forgot to add that restricting resources (i.e. feeding only after a
well-behaved walk, or being made to wait, etc as a way to teach the dog
who is in control of the food) is also considered "mean" and unacceptable.

*Sigh*

--Susan

On 2009-04-07 12:44:31 -0400, Susan said:

An acquaintance of mine is talking about giving up a healthy but ill-
behaved 1.5yo rottie to get another dog because the rottie is so poorly
behaved. The likely result will be an abandoned dog who will never see
adoption (rotties are very unpopular here), and another dog becoming
badly behaved and abandoned due to ineffective "treat training".

Unless you want to be responsible for the dog - and considered a big
meanie - I don't know that there's anything you can do except shun
your friend after telling her why you are shunning her.

"Susan" wrote:

The likely result will be an abandoned dog who will never see
adoption (rotties are very unpopular here), and another dog becoming
badly behaved and abandoned due to ineffective "treat training".

Ineffective training, full stop. And yeah, they're liable to have no better
results with the next dog... classic case of what I call "serial dog
owners"... blame it on the dog rather than changing their own behaviour,
dump dog after dog. Blech.


I'll define "treat training" because last time I used the term I got the
feeling from one poster that it is used here (in my small town)
differently than others may be familiar with.

Yep, it was pretty clear from your post in the other thread that your
experiences have been with people badly misusing food rewards. And thanks
for giving us your definition!

"Treat training" is a method where no physical correction of a dog is
permitted, in any circumstance.

Ok then! This sounds more like what's commonly referred to as "pure
positive" training; however PP training is no corrections, full stop - not
even verbal ones.

Dogs (even young pups) are subjected to
long, repetitive training sessions where a command is given, then
rewarded with a treat, over and over for 30-60 minutes, even if the dog
"got it" long ago and has since lost all interest.

And this is no known method - not PP, not clicker shaping, nothing. If your
description is accurate, it isn't even training! This is simply someone
who's badly misunderstood the theories of positive training.
Have you personally witnessed these training sessions? I'm not talking about
watching people do it outside of the classes, I'm talking about observing
the *classes*.

If the dog refuses to
follow a command when given, the treats come back out to bribe
compliance. If the dog still disobeys, the treat offering increases to
gain compliance, or the dog gets his way.

Again, are you referring to what you've seen done in the actual classes, to
what you've watched people do *outside* of the classes, or to what you've
seen with the Rottie in question?

. Unfortunately, their vet, friends and family, and
big box pet store dweebs are telling them they are perfect doggie parents
and this is just a difficult pooch from a difficult breed.

Ugh.

Professional training is out
because "treat training" is the going thing here, and I was unsuccessful
in finding a local trainer for my dobe who doesn't advocate this method.

I have a feeling you may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater here.
Just because the big box store "trainer" isn't good doesn't mean that other
trainers who use food rewards are incompetent, or even that they subscribe
to "pure positive" dogma!

I think your friends could benefit by finding a good, balanced trainer -
one who focuses on positive reinforcement, but does not rule out non-reward
markers, and/or verbal and possibly physical correction as needed - and I
think you may be missing finding such a trainer because you've currently got
a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of using food.
Even finding a *competent* "pure positive" trainer would be better than
nothing.

They think that any physical correction is "mean" and don't want to even
think about it.

Sigh. I suppose it wouldn't do any good to point out that it's "mean" to get
rid of the dog....


I'll also point out (to *you*, and perhaps it will assist in dealing with
your friends) that it's possible to turn around bad behaviours that with a
minimum of physical correction.

For example, you say he jumps. The quickest and easiest way to train a dog
not to jump is NOT the traditional knee-in-the-chest, step-on-the-toes, etc.
etc. physical corrections, but to remove the reward the dog gets for the
undesired behaviour and instead reward the desired behaviour.
Yes, the dog IS getting rewarded even when you use the physical correction -
because the dog is seeking *attention* and/or reaction from you, and is
still getting it. If, instead, you turn away (and keep turning away) as the
dog jumps, then instantly turn back and praise/pet as the feet hit the
floor- immediately standing up and turning away if the dog even starts to go
up again - in very short order most dogs will stop jumping on you.

The trick to it is to stand straight, not even LOOK at the dog as you turn
away, and to "accidentally" fend the dog off with your hip and/or elbow if
needed - IOW just sort of let the dog slide off of you - and to instantly
praise and *scritch the chest* when the dog's forefeet are on the floor.
Think of it as playing the "hot and cold" game - any move towards the
desired behaviour gets rewarded, any move towards the undesired behaviour
removes reward. The "correction" in this case is the removal of attention,
not the incidental fending off of the dog.
This is an *extremely* effective method - using it, I can get most dogs
sitting beside me without even thinking about jumping (on me, anyway) within
a couple of minutes.

You will note, btw, that in this case I make no mention of a food reward. A
reward (in current dog training jargon, a "positive reinforcement") is
*anything the dog wants*.



So, book recommendations anyone? Good arguments? Commiseration?

I don't have immediate book recommendations, but you definitely have my
commiseration! It's a very frustrating situation, especially since they're
thinking of replacing the dog and will probably repeat the mistakes.

Some food for thought for you (pun semi-intentional):


The fatal flaws in the "method" you described are the length of training
session, and that apparently the crucial concept of *shaping* a behaviour by
gradually raising the criteria isn't being used (or being gotten across).

Here's an example of treat training" done properly - here, in the form of
shaping behaviour with the marker of a clicker, and with verbal no-reward
markers and praise - to teach a trick. Watch how the trainer gradually ups
the criteria - and how the dog THINKS about what to do.
This was, btw, clearly not done in just one session, but over a period of
time. It's in Russian, but you don't need to know what the trainer's saying
to understand what you see the dog doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFMRM...e=channel_page


And this video has a story behind it. The dog in it had gone through three
homes - in one of which she was physically abused by well-meaning owners who
followed bad advice from a book - a pregnancy, a traumatic spay late in the
pregnancy, and a stint in a shelter... all before the age of 11 months.

She stole food. She responded to the word "come" by bolting away and running
in quarter-mile circles for 15-20 minutes. She charged joggers, bicycles,
flying leaves, anything that moved, often ending charges at humans with
either barking at their heels or bouncing to eye-level and barking in their
faces. She guarded her food and anything else she considered valuable from
humans and dogs alike. Last but not least, the only context she had for
playing with humans was to whirl around them, bouncing up and grabbing hold
of their arms.

When it came to training, she could not be corrected with collar pops of any
sort because one previous owner had damaged her trachea. Plus, she was so
extrordinarily physically and emotionally sensitive in general that nearly
any traditional physical correction - no matter how light - terrified her
and/or caused her to react with resistance; even gentle physical restraint
could freak her out. Yet at the same time, she was very independent, and not
interested in pleasing humans; she knew only how to manipulate or to resist.

She was re-trained by a method heavily reliant on small food rewards used
both for shaping behaviours and for instilling conditioned responses (for
example, a conditioned reflex to look back at the handler when her name was
spoken). The method also included a variant of restrained recall & elements
of NLIF, as well as teaching her to play with toys - and then using the toys
as rewards - all of which was 99% done off lead.

This was not a quick fix method, but a long, slow one... but the results
were well worth it. Please note, btw, that the fence shown is absolutely no
deterrent to this particular dog leaving - she could clear a 4-foot fence in
a hop - and also what the dog does, without prompting, at the very end of
the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXbzNLj9nP4

. Unfortunately, their vet, friends and family, and
big box pet store dweebs are telling them they are perfect doggie parents
and this is just a difficult pooch from a difficult breed.


Wanted to add one more thought he
This may not, in fact, be what all those people are telling them. Unless
you've been present at every single one of those conversations, all you
really know is what your friends SAY these people are telling them. And
unfortunately, your friends sound as if they're only listening to (and
repeating) what they want to hear.

On Apr 7, 11:49�am, Susan wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:44:31 +0000, Susan wrote:

snip I'll define "treat training" because last time I used the term I got the
feeling from one poster that it is used here (in my small town)
differently than others may be familiar with.

"Treat training" is a method where no physical correction of a dog is
permitted, in any circumstance. �Dogs (even young pups) are subjected to
long, repetitive training sessions where a command is given, then
rewarded with a treat, over and over for 30-60 minutes, even if the dog
"got it" long ago and has since lost all interest. �If the dog refuses
to follow a command when given, the treats come back out to bribe
compliance. �If the dog still disobeys, the treat offering increases to
gain compliance, or the dog gets his way.

snip

I forgot to add that restricting resources (i.e. feeding only after a
well-behaved walk, or being made to wait, etc as a way to teach the dog
who is in control of the food) is also considered "mean" and unacceptable..

*Sigh*

--Susan

weird training method. I use treats, but not as bribes, and generally
try to stay away from punishment because I think it tends to be
ineffective communication. Are they taking lessons at Petsmart or
Petco? IMO veterinarians tend not to be experts on dog training -
which is why mine send people to me when they need training advice.
Sandy in OK www.positivelycanine.com

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:08:02 -0400, sionnach wrote:

"Susan" wrote:

The likely result will be an abandoned dog who will never see
adoption (rotties are very unpopular here), and another dog becoming
badly behaved and abandoned due to ineffective "treat training".

Ineffective training, full stop. And yeah, they're liable to have no
better results with the next dog... classic case of what I call
"serial dog owners"... blame it on the dog rather than changing their
own behaviour, dump dog after dog. Blech.

Yes, exactly. I'm hoping that they can be reformed since this is their
first dog, and I really think they just don't know any better.

I'll define "treat training" because last time I used the term I got
the feeling from one poster that it is used here (in my small town)
differently than others may be familiar with.

Yep, it was pretty clear from your post in the other thread that your
experiences have been with people badly misusing food rewards. And
thanks for giving us your definition!

NP, it's amazing how differently people can use the same term in
different places!

"Treat training" is a method where no physical correction of a dog is
permitted, in any circumstance.

Ok then! This sounds more like what's commonly referred to as "pure
positive" training; however PP training is no corrections, full stop -
not even verbal ones.

Dogs (even young pups) are subjected to long, repetitive training
sessions where a command is given, then rewarded with a treat, over and
over for 30-60 minutes, even if the dog "got it" long ago and has since
lost all interest.

And this is no known method - not PP, not clicker shaping, nothing. If
your description is accurate, it isn't even training! This is simply
someone who's badly misunderstood the theories of positive training.
Have you personally witnessed these training sessions? I'm not talking
about watching people do it outside of the classes, I'm talking about
observing the *classes*.

Yes, we removed one of our old dogs from this type of class after the
first day. It was doing more harm than good. Unfortunately, this being
a rural area, the closest trainer other than this one (and another who,
when asked, said they use the same method), is well over an hour away --
not exactly practical for weekday evening sessions.

The breeder we got our current dobe from has talked about getting
certified as a trainer (she used to work for a trainer when she lived
elsewhere; if her own dogs are any indication, she's great), and I
*really* hope she does. This community needs a trainer who is
responsible.

If the dog refuses to follow a command when given, the treats come
back out to bribe compliance. If the dog still disobeys, the treat
offering increases to gain compliance, or the dog gets his way.

Again, are you referring to what you've seen done in the actual classes,
to what you've watched people do *outside* of the classes, or to what
you've seen with the Rottie in question?

I've seen them do this with the Rottie in question, and I know plenty of
other people in the community who do this. There are very few well-
behaved dogs out here, because there is a LOT of social pressure to train
this way. My vet is as fed-up with it as I am

snip
I have a feeling you may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater
here. Just because the big box store "trainer" isn't good doesn't mean
that other trainers who use food rewards are incompetent, or even that
they subscribe to "pure positive" dogma!

That would require other trainers to exist! Again, it's a rural area,
there are two trainers in an hour or so drive radius, and they both
stink.

I think your friends could benefit by finding a good, balanced trainer
- one who focuses on positive reinforcement, but does not rule out
non-reward markers, and/or verbal and possibly physical correction as
needed - and I think you may be missing finding such a trainer because
you've currently got a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of using food.
Even finding a *competent* "pure positive" trainer would be better than
nothing.

They think that any physical correction is "mean" and don't want to
even think about it.

Sigh. I suppose it wouldn't do any good to point out that it's "mean" to
get rid of the dog....

I tried that, along with it being mean (before the dog was going to be
given up) to let their kids be terrorized by the dog. Then they were
sure that the dog would come around as it got older, now they are sure
the dog is untrainable.

I'll also point out (to *you*, and perhaps it will assist in dealing
with your friends) that it's possible to turn around bad behaviours that
with a minimum of physical correction.

snip training notes for length only

You will note, btw, that in this case I make no mention of a food
reward. A reward (in current dog training jargon, a "positive
reinforcement") is *anything the dog wants*.

I absolutely agree that a mix of positive and negative reinforcement is
important, and that physical correction *alone* doesn't do the job.
However, there are also times when physical correction is, IMO,
absolutely necessary. For example, the ignore tactic you mentioned can
be very effective for an adult, but it won't work for a small child. A
little one can't ignore or deflect a grown rottie or dobe, they just
aren't big or strong enough. Coming in with strong physical correction
is how I let my dog know that messing with or trying to be dominant to
the babies will NOT fly in this pack.

I also won't ever answer a failure to comply with an increased offer of
reward. (I'm not saying you advocated this, it's something that they are
doing.) That rewards misbehavior!

I actually think we're mostly on the same page WRT training methods, that
is why I suspected your reaction to my previous mention of "treat
training" was due to a difference of definitions. I really don't know
what to call the stupid that goes on so often here.

So, book recommendations anyone? Good arguments? Commiseration?

I don't have immediate book recommendations, but you definitely have my
commiseration! It's a very frustrating situation, especially since
they're thinking of replacing the dog and will probably repeat the
mistakes.

The worst part is it's not a problem with one family, it's an epidemic --
this is just one case which I hope might be curable.

On a side note, I mentioned the problem to my folks (my son and I will be
living with them until my divorce is complete so I can buy a house, and
it's rather dragging on), and my mom seems to be considering letting me
take in the Rott if he ends up homeless.

I'm not sure whether or not that would be a good idea. The dobe is not
trained as he should be -- he's the first dog my mom ever got as a pup
from a breeder (all of our others were late adolescent or older from
rescues), and she and dad *spoiled* him rotten to the point that he has
some issues. If it had happened somewhere else, it might have been
funny, as it's a complete 180 from our whole family's normal training of
dogs. He's finally big enough that she realizes her mistakes and we are
working with him to improve his behavior, but he still has a looong way
to go.

OTOH, we have an extra crate, and we have the space. I work from home,
so assuming the two of them get along, it might not be bad, and I'd be
moving into the new house with an already well-trained rottie. However,
I definitely won't consider another dog unless we can find a way to
economically fence the yard, or at least a moderately-sized dog run. I
have enough trouble properly exercising the dobe on-leash when it's
called for -- doing it with two of them might give me a heart attack!

--Susan

"Susan" wrote in message
...
This is mostly a rant, but advice is also welcome.

An acquaintance of mine is talking about giving up a healthy but ill-
behaved 1.5yo rottie to get another dog because the rottie is so poorly
behaved. The likely result will be an abandoned dog who will never see
adoption (rotties are very unpopular here), and another dog becoming
badly behaved and abandoned due to ineffective "treat training".

I'll define "treat training" because last time I used the term I got the
feeling from one poster that it is used here (in my small town)
differently than others may be familiar with.

"Treat training" is a method where no physical correction of a dog is
permitted, in any circumstance. Dogs (even young pups) are subjected to
long, repetitive training sessions where a command is given, then
rewarded with a treat, over and over for 30-60 minutes, even if the dog
"got it" long ago and has since lost all interest. If the dog refuses to
follow a command when given, the treats come back out to bribe
compliance. If the dog still disobeys, the treat offering increases to
gain compliance, or the dog gets his way.

Naturally, this leads to a dog who ignores commands and runs the house.
This one is particularly bad with pulling on his leash, jumping on
everyone (including their two small children), begging for or just
stealing people's food, acting aggressively toward strangers, pushing the
humans off "his" couch, and so on.

So, I'm trying to convince the family that changing how they interact
with their dog (this is their first dog) will change how the dog acts
toward them, and that the relationship can be saved if they are willing
to do what it takes. Unfortunately, their vet, friends and family, and
big box pet store dweebs are telling them they are perfect doggie parents
and this is just a difficult pooch from a difficult breed.

I asked them to first start by taking the dog to my vet (who is not an
idiot), and they are thinking about it. Professional training is out
because "treat training" is the going thing here, and I was unsuccessful
in finding a local trainer for my dobe who doesn't advocate this method.

I'm hoping that with the input of a good vet, I can convince them that
treat training is the problem, not the dog, and get them to try more
effective methods. They think that any physical correction is "mean" and
don't want to even think about it.

I haven't responded to them since emailing them back that they should
give my vet a try -- make sure he's healthy and get some experienced
input. I wanted to share the DVDs I bought for my parents with them, but
the company failed to caption the videos and the wife/mom in that family
is deaf. I'm going to look for a good book instead.

I plan to try to show them how I would work with the dog, but a book or
properly captioned DVD would be good back-up. I don't want to be too
blunt in explaining how they caused all of this (lest they blow me off
entirely), but I also want them to understand that they can change it.

So, book recommendations anyone? Good arguments? Commiseration?

--Susan the Frustrated

================================
Rottweilers definitely need good obedience training. They are very self
confident, intelligent and strong minded.
If the proper training methods and all else fail and they decide to give up
the dog, suggest that they contact a Rottweiler rescue group.
This is a link to a list of nationwide Rottweiler rescues.
http://rottieaid.org/

This is another list:
American Rottweiler Club
Gwen Chaney,

North Carolina Rottweiler Rescue

Southern States Rottweiler Rescue

Rotts Across Texas Rottweiler Rescue

NoVa Rottweiler Rescue League, Inc.

Gingers Rottie Rescue - Las Vegas Nevada

Phoenix Area Rottweiler Rescue

Northeast Rottweiler Rescue

WeCare Rottweiler Rescue, Inc.

Big Sky Rottweiler Rescue
Serving: MT, ID, WY, ND, limited coverage for CO & UT
PO Box 221, Laurel, MT 59044,

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 16:04:42 -0400, sionnach wrote:

. Unfortunately, their vet, friends and family, and big box pet store
dweebs are telling them they are perfect doggie parents and this is
just a difficult pooch from a difficult breed.


Wanted to add one more thought he
This may not, in fact, be what all those people are telling them.
Unless
you've been present at every single one of those conversations, all you
really know is what your friends SAY these people are telling them. And
unfortunately, your friends sound as if they're only listening to (and
repeating) what they want to hear.

That's entirely possible.

I'll check out the video from your other post when I have time this
evening. I really shouldn't be on USENET right now, but since I'm
waiting on a client response before I can move ahead on my work... why
not? ;

--Susan