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beyond click and treat, click and love



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 12th 03, 03:39 AM
Hal
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Default beyond click and treat, click and love

I have recently been reading about training methods, coercive,
non...etc.
I definitely dont like the idea of coercive training. I believe the
reason a dog should do things for the human is out of loyalty, not
fear. This applies to click and treat too...the dog shouldnt (in my
ideal fantasy which may never come to pass) obey the owner or stay out
of trouble because they will get to eat, but because they love the
owner so much that they are eager to please, ideally now, at ALL
costs, (including dieing for the owner).

My question, Is there any way of training anyone has info about or
knows about that is akin to what I describe? If it helps to know what
type of breed I meen the smarter varieties, maybe wolf hybrids and
aussie cattle dogs.
Thanks for any help about this conflict.
  #2  
Old July 12th 03, 05:07 AM
Emily Carroll
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I definitely dont like the idea of coercive training. I believe the
reason a dog should do things for the human is out of loyalty, not
fear.


A dog can't possibly do things out of loyalty until it's taught what is
expected of it.

As such, you need to come to some sort of way of teaching the dog what you'd
expect from it. Dogs don't naturally obey our desires and whims because it
comes naturally to them. Dogs that do what comes naturally are ones that
eat off the counter, jump on people, and destroy the house when they are
bored.

I also feel that it is necessary for the dog to understand that it's lack of
behavior causes you displeasure, which is enough for many dogs but you also
want a dog that behaves because it's good for the dog. You WANT a recall to
be a recall no matter what the situation, because otherwise you are not
doing your job as the dog's master. The dog relies on you to keep him
safe--and a wishy-washy recall when the dog is in danger is not a recall at
all. It is my responsibility to provide for my dogs, and I want a rock
solid recall in case there IS a problem where they will put themselves in
danger.

This applies to click and treat too...the dog shouldnt (in my
ideal fantasy which may never come to pass) obey the owner or stay out
of trouble because they will get to eat,


That's not how clicker training works. You initially use the treat to
"charge" the clicker--show the dog that click=good. This allows you to
shape the dog's behavior by showing it precisely what you want. After
initial training, they aren't responding because of the treat, but because
they are being told precisely what is right by the click. The reward is
initially treats or toys. But you do phase that part out, as a dog that
only behaves for food is not trained at all.

~Emily


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  #3  
Old July 12th 03, 05:16 AM
Tricia9999
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This applies to click and treat too...the dog shouldnt (in my
ideal fantasy which may never come to pass) obey the owner or stay out
of trouble because they will get to eat, but because they love the
owner so much that they are eager to please, ideally now, at ALL
costs, (including dieing for the owner).


You have a conception of dogs that Disney has told you exists. It is
unrealistic and unfair to put that much on dogs' shoulders. It seems to be the
only species we ask this much from.

That said, there are some breeds that will fit your fantasy better than others,
so that is where your research should begin.
  #5  
Old July 12th 03, 09:12 AM
Jo Wolf
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You need to do FAR more breed research, too.

Here's something that will help you as you struggle with how you will
train.... and it's obvious that you know nothing about how to train
now... only what you have read or been told. And your understanding is
imperfect as yet. DOGS DO THAT WHICH IS SATISFYING AND DO NOT DO THAT
WHICH IS NOT SATISFYING.

You EARN loyalty. You EARN respect. The unconditional loves comes with
the dog; it's stupid enough to believe that the person who feeds him is
wonderful... whether or not it is true.

Canine ability to reason and rationalize is extremely limited. Their
logic is not at all similar to ours. They want a fair, firm and
consistent leader. Not a master, not a dictator. A leader.

You will do best if you go through some training classes with your dog.
You need it for the coaching. You need it for the reality that dogs
become teenagers, just like kids. grin

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

  #6  
Old July 12th 03, 03:21 PM
Emily Carroll
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You have a conception of dogs that Disney has told you exists.


I'd say Terhune & the guy who wrote "Big Red" are the more likely culprits


I wish my dogs listened to me simply because I was their master. It'd make
life a heck of a lot simpler

~Emily


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  #7  
Old July 13th 03, 01:05 AM
Paula
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DogStar716 wrote:

This applies to click and treat too...the dog shouldnt (in my
ideal fantasy which may never come to pass) obey the owner or stay out
of trouble because they will get to eat, but because they love the
owner so much that they are eager to please, i


You need to get rid of this very common misconception.

Dogs don't do things to please us,they do things because they like the reward.


It is always interesting to me when people think like the OP of people
as well as dogs. When you think about it, do people usually do things
just because they love someone so much that they are eager to please?
Most people go to work because they get paid even if they do like their
jobs. They marry people, or at least stay married to people, who meet
their needs as well as expecting needs to be met in addition to that
feeling of love. Altruism is a beautiful thing when you find it, but it
does not make the world go round. Neither does straight money. How
soon do you get tired of doing something for someone who does nothing in
return, especially if they seem to just expect it rather than really
appreciate it? How often do you get tired of doing something for
someone who only pays you but does not appreciate you? I have found
that the best formula for success is a combination. When your behavior
results in positive tangible rewards AND a satisfying bonded
relationship of trust and appreciation, you are most likely to continue
that behavior, whether you are a dog or a human being, it seems to me.

So, OP, make your dog a valued part of the pack in terms of how they see
pack bonding and yourself a good pack leader in its eyes as well as
making the behaviors extrinsically rewarding and see how far you can go.
And remember that all those Disney dogs were trained before they got
anywhere near the sound stage and probably got quite a few treats as
well as approving looks and words from their handlers all along the way.

--
Paula
"Cry 'Lamer!' and let slip the flames of war."
-- Bryce Utting
 




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