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#1
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beyond click and treat, click and love
I have recently been reading about training methods, coercive,
non...etc. I definitely dont like the idea of coercive training. I believe the reason a dog should do things for the human is out of loyalty, not fear. This applies to click and treat too...the dog shouldnt (in my ideal fantasy which may never come to pass) obey the owner or stay out of trouble because they will get to eat, but because they love the owner so much that they are eager to please, ideally now, at ALL costs, (including dieing for the owner). My question, Is there any way of training anyone has info about or knows about that is akin to what I describe? If it helps to know what type of breed I meen the smarter varieties, maybe wolf hybrids and aussie cattle dogs. Thanks for any help about this conflict. |
#2
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I definitely dont like the idea of coercive training. I believe the reason a dog should do things for the human is out of loyalty, not fear. A dog can't possibly do things out of loyalty until it's taught what is expected of it. As such, you need to come to some sort of way of teaching the dog what you'd expect from it. Dogs don't naturally obey our desires and whims because it comes naturally to them. Dogs that do what comes naturally are ones that eat off the counter, jump on people, and destroy the house when they are bored. I also feel that it is necessary for the dog to understand that it's lack of behavior causes you displeasure, which is enough for many dogs but you also want a dog that behaves because it's good for the dog. You WANT a recall to be a recall no matter what the situation, because otherwise you are not doing your job as the dog's master. The dog relies on you to keep him safe--and a wishy-washy recall when the dog is in danger is not a recall at all. It is my responsibility to provide for my dogs, and I want a rock solid recall in case there IS a problem where they will put themselves in danger. This applies to click and treat too...the dog shouldnt (in my ideal fantasy which may never come to pass) obey the owner or stay out of trouble because they will get to eat, That's not how clicker training works. You initially use the treat to "charge" the clicker--show the dog that click=good. This allows you to shape the dog's behavior by showing it precisely what you want. After initial training, they aren't responding because of the treat, but because they are being told precisely what is right by the click. The reward is initially treats or toys. But you do phase that part out, as a dog that only behaves for food is not trained at all. ~Emily --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.490 / Virus Database: 289 - Release Date: 6/17/2003 |
#3
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This applies to click and treat too...the dog shouldnt (in my
ideal fantasy which may never come to pass) obey the owner or stay out of trouble because they will get to eat, but because they love the owner so much that they are eager to please, ideally now, at ALL costs, (including dieing for the owner). You have a conception of dogs that Disney has told you exists. It is unrealistic and unfair to put that much on dogs' shoulders. It seems to be the only species we ask this much from. That said, there are some breeds that will fit your fantasy better than others, so that is where your research should begin. |
#4
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#5
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You need to do FAR more breed research, too.
Here's something that will help you as you struggle with how you will train.... and it's obvious that you know nothing about how to train now... only what you have read or been told. And your understanding is imperfect as yet. DOGS DO THAT WHICH IS SATISFYING AND DO NOT DO THAT WHICH IS NOT SATISFYING. You EARN loyalty. You EARN respect. The unconditional loves comes with the dog; it's stupid enough to believe that the person who feeds him is wonderful... whether or not it is true. Canine ability to reason and rationalize is extremely limited. Their logic is not at all similar to ours. They want a fair, firm and consistent leader. Not a master, not a dictator. A leader. You will do best if you go through some training classes with your dog. You need it for the coaching. You need it for the reality that dogs become teenagers, just like kids. grin Jo Wolf Martinez, Georgia |
#6
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You have a conception of dogs that Disney has told you exists. I'd say Terhune & the guy who wrote "Big Red" are the more likely culprits I wish my dogs listened to me simply because I was their master. It'd make life a heck of a lot simpler ~Emily --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.490 / Virus Database: 289 - Release Date: 6/16/2003 |
#7
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DogStar716 wrote:
This applies to click and treat too...the dog shouldnt (in my ideal fantasy which may never come to pass) obey the owner or stay out of trouble because they will get to eat, but because they love the owner so much that they are eager to please, i You need to get rid of this very common misconception. Dogs don't do things to please us,they do things because they like the reward. It is always interesting to me when people think like the OP of people as well as dogs. When you think about it, do people usually do things just because they love someone so much that they are eager to please? Most people go to work because they get paid even if they do like their jobs. They marry people, or at least stay married to people, who meet their needs as well as expecting needs to be met in addition to that feeling of love. Altruism is a beautiful thing when you find it, but it does not make the world go round. Neither does straight money. How soon do you get tired of doing something for someone who does nothing in return, especially if they seem to just expect it rather than really appreciate it? How often do you get tired of doing something for someone who only pays you but does not appreciate you? I have found that the best formula for success is a combination. When your behavior results in positive tangible rewards AND a satisfying bonded relationship of trust and appreciation, you are most likely to continue that behavior, whether you are a dog or a human being, it seems to me. So, OP, make your dog a valued part of the pack in terms of how they see pack bonding and yourself a good pack leader in its eyes as well as making the behaviors extrinsically rewarding and see how far you can go. And remember that all those Disney dogs were trained before they got anywhere near the sound stage and probably got quite a few treats as well as approving looks and words from their handlers all along the way. -- Paula "Cry 'Lamer!' and let slip the flames of war." -- Bryce Utting |
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