Our dog Smoky has a tendency to overeat and have loose stools. The past
year and a half we have limited bout problems by supplementing his food
with canned pumpkin. (while our other dog had no problems with her
stools and was less overweight we ended up putting both of them on a
hallf pumkin diet.) Last year's pupkin crop was devastated by diseas
and the local supermarkets are running out of stock already. Is there
any reasonable substitute?

--
Bill Clodius
los the lost and net the pet to email

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:29:23 -0700, (William
Clodius) wrote:

Our dog Smoky has a tendency to overeat and have loose stools. The past
year and a half we have limited bout problems by supplementing his food
with canned pumpkin. (while our other dog had no problems with her
stools and was less overweight we ended up putting both of them on a
hallf pumkin diet.) Last year's pupkin crop was devastated by diseas
and the local supermarkets are running out of stock already. Is there
any reasonable substitute?

I'm having a little trouble understanding your email due to typos.
Are you saying that half of your dogs' diet is canned pumpkin? If so,
that is not a balanced diet. I'm also not sure exactly what problem
you're trying to solve. Overeating shouldn't be a problem if you
control what your dog gets to eat. If you're looking to fill her up
without adding calories, green beans are good for that. Acidophilus
is great for loose stools.

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:

Are you saying that half of your dogs' diet is canned pumpkin? If so,
that is not a balanced diet.

Hmmm - if the dog is getting a normal ration of balanced diet kibble,
and pumpkin supplements, why wouldn't that be appropriate? Obviously,
if the kibble was cut back to an amount that didn't meet the dog's
nutritional needs, and pumpkin was used to fill in the amount, that
would be a problem, but I can't figure out how the addition of something
throws off nutritional value of the kibble.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:17:18 -0500, Janet Boss
wrote:

In article ,
sighthounds & siberians wrote:

Are you saying that half of your dogs' diet is canned pumpkin? If so,
that is not a balanced diet.

Hmmm - if the dog is getting a normal ration of balanced diet kibble,
and pumpkin supplements, why wouldn't that be appropriate? Obviously,
if the kibble was cut back to an amount that didn't meet the dog's
nutritional needs, and pumpkin was used to fill in the amount, that
would be a problem, but I can't figure out how the addition of something
throws off nutritional value of the kibble.

Well, the way I was looking at it is that if half the dog's diet is
canned pumpkin, it's not getting a normal ration of balanced diet
kibble.

I had trouble figuring out what was going on in this situation. The
OP said his dog has a tendency to overeat. That sounds like the dogs
may be free fed. I mean, I have dogs that would eat to obesity too,
but since I control what they eat, it's not a problem. So, I dunno.

Janet Boss wrote:

Hmmm - if the dog is getting a normal ration of balanced diet kibble,
and pumpkin supplements, why wouldn't that be appropriate? Obviously,
if the kibble was cut back to an amount that didn't meet the dog's
nutritional needs, and pumpkin was used to fill in the amount, that
would be a problem, but I can't figure out how the addition of something
throws off nutritional value of the kibble.


You are joking right? A balanced kibble? It's never happened.

sighthounds & siberians wrote:

snip

Well, the way I was looking at it is that if half the dog's diet is
canned pumpkin, it's not getting a normal ration of balanced diet
kibble.

I had trouble figuring out what was going on in this situation. The
OP said his dog has a tendency to overeat. That sounds like the dogs
may be free fed. I mean, I have dogs that would eat to obesity too,
but since I control what they eat, it's not a problem. So, I dunno.

Lets see if I can keep awake enough to post without spelling errors this
time.

A half a year ago we had behavior issues with Smoky that led us to
contact a trainer with expertise in aggression, who is only in town in
the summer. In addition to the behavior suggestions she suggested
feeding him twice a day in his kennel, each meal to consist of 3/4 cup
good quality kibble (his coat lost its sheen when I changed kibbles a
couple of months before we started consulting with her, and I had been
planing to change back when she made the suggestion) and 3/4 cup
pumpkin, plus some fish oil for his coat and a pill once a day to
minimize pain from his hip displasia. After six months his weight has
gone down about 10%, to around 72 lbs. He would benefit by loosing a
couple more pounds, but he now has a definite waist and uptuck and in
the right light his lower ribs can be seen under his coat..

Because we were feeding Smoky in the kennel, and Peanut could also use a
diet, we also instuituted a similar program for her, 1/2 cup each
pumpkin and kibble at each meal. She has lost about 5% to around 40 lbs.

While we now have their weight under control neither dog has been happy
about the change. In particular after four years of no problems, Smoky
has just discovered that kitchen counters can have food that he can
reach, and if the pantr;y door is open a little he can open it the rest
of the way with his nose. We have become more careful about leaving food
(breads only so far) unguarded and fully closing the pantry door, but we
are open to other suggestions.

--
Bill Clodius
los the lost and net the pet to email

William Clodius wrote:

A half a year ago we had behavior issues with Smoky that led us to
contact a trainer with expertise in aggression, who is only in town in
the summer. In addition to the behavior suggestions she suggested
feeding him twice a day in his kennel, each meal to consist of 3/4 cup
good quality kibble (his coat lost its sheen when I changed kibbles a
couple of months before we started consulting with her, and I had been
planing to change back when she made the suggestion) and 3/4 cup
pumpkin, plus some fish oil for his coat and a pill once a day to
minimize pain from his hip displasia. After six months his weight has
gone down about 10%, to around 72 lbs. He would benefit by loosing a
couple more pounds, but he now has a definite waist and uptuck and in
the right light his lower ribs can be seen under his coat..

Because we were feeding Smoky in the kennel, and Peanut could also use a
diet, we also instuituted a similar program for her, 1/2 cup each
pumpkin and kibble at each meal. She has lost about 5% to around 40 lbs.

While we now have their weight under control neither dog has been happy
about the change. In particular after four years of no problems, Smoky
has just discovered that kitchen counters can have food that he can
reach, and if the pantr;y door is open a little he can open it the rest
of the way with his nose. We have become more careful about leaving food
(breads only so far) unguarded and fully closing the pantry door, but we
are open to other suggestions.


How about changing to a diet that is species appropriate (dogs are
carnivores) and the dogs will actually want to eat? The reason adding
pumpkin works is because it is low in carbohydrates and so lowers the
total carbs the dog gets in a day. A better solution is to switch to a
species appropriate diet of real meat, bones and organ meats which has
no carbs, the dogs like to eat it because it was what they were meant to
eat and they maintain a good weight all at the same time.

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

Char

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:45:54 -0700, (William
Clodius) wrote:

sighthounds & siberians wrote:

snip

Well, the way I was looking at it is that if half the dog's diet is
canned pumpkin, it's not getting a normal ration of balanced diet
kibble.

I had trouble figuring out what was going on in this situation. The
OP said his dog has a tendency to overeat. That sounds like the dogs
may be free fed. I mean, I have dogs that would eat to obesity too,
but since I control what they eat, it's not a problem. So, I dunno.

Lets see if I can keep awake enough to post without spelling errors this
time.

A half a year ago we had behavior issues with Smoky that led us to
contact a trainer with expertise in aggression, who is only in town in
the summer. In addition to the behavior suggestions she suggested
feeding him twice a day in his kennel, each meal to consist of 3/4 cup
good quality kibble (his coat lost its sheen when I changed kibbles a
couple of months before we started consulting with her, and I had been
planing to change back when she made the suggestion) and 3/4 cup
pumpkin, plus some fish oil for his coat and a pill once a day to
minimize pain from his hip displasia. After six months his weight has
gone down about 10%, to around 72 lbs. He would benefit by loosing a
couple more pounds, but he now has a definite waist and uptuck and in
the right light his lower ribs can be seen under his coat..

Because we were feeding Smoky in the kennel, and Peanut could also use a
diet, we also instuituted a similar program for her, 1/2 cup each
pumpkin and kibble at each meal. She has lost about 5% to around 40 lbs.

While we now have their weight under control neither dog has been happy
about the change. In particular after four years of no problems, Smoky
has just discovered that kitchen counters can have food that he can
reach, and if the pantr;y door is open a little he can open it the rest
of the way with his nose. We have become more careful about leaving food
(breads only so far) unguarded and fully closing the pantry door, but we
are open to other suggestions.

I deal with counter-surfing by supervising and managing (not leaving
any food out). It's particularly tricky here because I have dogs that
will counter-surf for things other than food. I'm thinking of
installing heavy-duty nets hanging from the ceiling in each room and
storing all valuables in those.

It's reasonable to assume that Smoky is counter-surfing because he's
hungry. You don't mention how much the dogs ate before this change,
but I assume the trainer's recommendations represented a decrease in
amount of kibble. What kibble are you feeding? 1 1/2 cups per day
for a dog whose ideal weight is about 70 lb (you said he's 72 lb now
and could stand to lose a couple more) is not a lot of kibble, unless
you are feeding something calorie-dense like Innova and Smoky is a
northern breed with a very efficient metabolism. If the kibble you're
feeding has a senior/weight loss formula, you might try that, or try a
senior/weight loss formula of another high-quality brand. Those
formulas are usually a little higher in fiber as well as lower in
calories, so you could feed a little more and the dog might feel more
satisfied. While canned pumpkin is great for stool issues and healthy
for dogs and humans alike (those orange vegetables!), I think green
beans might be a better filler for dieting dogs. Worth a try, anyway.

sighthounds & siberians wrote:

snip

It's reasonable to assume that Smoky is counter-surfing because he's
hungry. You don't mention how much the dogs ate before this change,

We didn't have good measurements, but I think a bout 2.5 cups a day. we
have been measuring lately using slightly rounded 1/4 cups, so about
1.75 cups a day now. Plus frequent treats when training.

but I assume the trainer's recommendations represented a decrease in
amount of kibble. What kibble are you feeding?

My memeory has always been a problem and its not getting better with
age. I recognize it in the store next to the other foods. Currently we
use a chicken meal and rice adult food, I think California Natural, but
it might be Nutro Max. Both dogs haved done well on other kibbles. Their
coats were great on salmon based kibble, but my wife objected to the
smell. I didn't notice significant changes with lamb, venison, or sweet
potatoe formulations. The only kibble that didn't seem to work was
Natural Balance.

1 1/2 cups per day
for a dog whose ideal weight is about 70 lb (you said he's 72 lb now
and could stand to lose a couple more) is not a lot of kibble, unless
you are feeding something calorie-dense like Innova and Smoky is a
northern breed with a very efficient metabolism.

Overall we think Lab/Weimaraner, brown coat with gunmetal highlights,
straight fine hair soft with an inner coat. Sometimes we wonder if he
might be a quarter chow, his tongue is about 80% black, but he doesn't
have a spitz tail or ears. His weight loss has been at a reasonable rate
at the diet we had him on while pumpkin was available, about 1.5
lbs/month.

If the kibble you're
feeding has a senior/weight loss formula, you might try that, or try a
senior/weight loss formula of another high-quality brand. Those
formulas are usually a little higher in fiber as well as lower in
calories, so you could feed a little more and the dog might feel more
satisfied. While canned pumpkin is great for stool issues and healthy
for dogs and humans alike (those orange vegetables!), I think green
beans might be a better filler for dieting dogs. Worth a try, anyway.
Thanks for the suggestions.

--
Bill Clodius
los the lost and net the pet to email

William Clodius wrote:
sighthounds & siberians wrote:

snip

It's reasonable to assume that Smoky is counter-surfing because he's
hungry. You don't mention how much the dogs ate before this change,

We didn't have good measurements, but I think a bout 2.5 cups a day. we
have been measuring lately using slightly rounded 1/4 cups, so about
1.75 cups a day now. Plus frequent treats when training.

but I assume the trainer's recommendations represented a decrease in
amount of kibble. What kibble are you feeding?

My memeory has always been a problem and its not getting better with
age. I recognize it in the store next to the other foods. Currently we
use a chicken meal and rice adult food, I think California Natural, but
it might be Nutro Max. Both dogs haved done well on other kibbles. Their
coats were great on salmon based kibble, but my wife objected to the
smell. I didn't notice significant changes with lamb, venison, or sweet
potatoe formulations. The only kibble that didn't seem to work was
Natural Balance.

1 1/2 cups per day
for a dog whose ideal weight is about 70 lb (you said he's 72 lb now
and could stand to lose a couple more) is not a lot of kibble, unless
you are feeding something calorie-dense like Innova and Smoky is a
northern breed with a very efficient metabolism.

Overall we think Lab/Weimaraner, brown coat with gunmetal highlights,
straight fine hair soft with an inner coat. Sometimes we wonder if he
might be a quarter chow, his tongue is about 80% black, but he doesn't
have a spitz tail or ears. His weight loss has been at a reasonable rate
at the diet we had him on while pumpkin was available, about 1.5
lbs/month.

Yet the dog is giving you signs that he's not happy with the diet and
that he is hungry. My suggestion of moving to a species appropriate raw
diet would eliminate the carbs which are the real problem. I mean, are
you going to feed him pumpkin the rest of his life? Does quality of life
mean anything? If you move back to kibble the weight will come back
because it is dense in carbs. What I am offering is a permanent solution
that will not leave your dog hungry yet will have him in a better condition.


If the kibble you're
feeding has a senior/weight loss formula, you might try that, or try a
senior/weight loss formula of another high-quality brand. Those
formulas are usually a little higher in fiber as well as lower in
calories, so you could feed a little more and the dog might feel more
satisfied. While canned pumpkin is great for stool issues and healthy
for dogs and humans alike (those orange vegetables!), I think green
beans might be a better filler for dieting dogs. Worth a try, anyway.
Thanks for the suggestions.


Dogs get no nutritional value from pumpkin or beans or fiber. He's
needing better and is letting you know through his actions. Feeding real
food would have him thin yet healthy too, something your diet can't
compare with.

Add the lack of nutritional value of the fillers you are using with
kibble which has never been nutritionally complete and you are on a road
to disaster.

Char