Kiba is our Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. He has been a wonderful dog,
although he has some health issues. He has had knee surgery for a luxating
patella, he has herniated a disk in his back and was on crate rest for
months last year, and suffers with allergies. My husband calls him "Steve
Austin" because he's cost us about the same as the Six Million Dollar Man!
But we love him, and he's been a wonderful little guy. To the problem:

There has been a great deal of animal activity outside our house this
spring. We are inundated by raccoons, deer and other "critters" that come
into our yard, up onto the porches, and cause mayhem if they can. Kiba
takes these invasions very personally, although I shudder to think he might
actually ever CATCH a full-grown 'coon. He would be outweighed, and
out-muscled, for sure. The reason I mention the wildlife is that I think it
may have some, or a lot, to do with our little problem.

Kiba has taken to barking at nothing. Well, not really nothing, but things
he should not be barking at. If I rustle a potato chip bag, BARK! BARK!
Not that yappy "bark, bark, bark!", you hear from yappy dogs that yap. Kiba
ISN'T a yapper. This is an alarm bark, a single, large "BARK!" There is
often three or four in a row, but not "yip,yip,yip", they are more like big
woofs, with a breath or two in between, if you can imagine a little guy like
him woofing. You can almost hear him saying, "Warning! Warning!". He runs
to the door, wanting out to go kill whatever he thinks is out there. It has
been getting quite out of hand. Rattling a paper I'm reading, dropping my
reading glasses on my drawing table, but most often rustling of plastic
bags, like the ones chips or nuts come in causes him to get all excited and
BARK!

We have tried re-direction. I can see his frustration with that, as he
thinks he is warning us, and needs us to take care, and pay attention.
I've leashed him, and kept him near me, so I can reassure him, "thank" him
for his warning, while trying to let him know that I will guard him if there
really is danger. But I'd rather he learn not to bark needlessly, than
spend all his time on a leash in the house.
The latest "method" I've tried is keeping treats in a candy bag, and if I
rattle something that makes him bark, I quickly grab the bag, rattle it, and
give him a treat out of it, so he can see not only does he not need to bark,
but it's me, myself, that's making the noise, and if he stops barking, he
gets a treat. That one seems to be helping, but my husband says I'm going
to teach him to bark so he can get a treat! I don't agree, but then, I
don't really know what to do anyway.

I don't mind an alert bark. It's one of the reasons we keep dogs, although
not a requirement for me. I understand it, though, and don't begrudge Kiba
the need to warn us that something is in the yard that shouldn't be there.
But this barking at nothing, or very little, is irritating the hell out of
us. Kiba is now almost three and a half years old, and this is the first
spring we've had this problem. I just can't think of any reason why this is
happening out of the blue. And I'm not sure how to proceed to prevent, or
at least control, it.

Phyrie

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 May 2010 15:18:48 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:


He runs
to the door, wanting out to go kill whatever he thinks is out there. It
has
been getting quite out of hand.

Phyrie, what do you usually do when he runs to the door and starts to
bark?

It depends. If there really is a creature out there, we might open the door
and chase whatever critter is bothering him off the porch or out of the
yard. We DON'T allow him to chase whatever it is, but sometimes if we've
let him out for a piddle, and he smells a 'coon, he'll run around the yard
after the offending beast, barking madly. We can't catch him, and he
doesn't seem to hear us calling him back to the house. We are very aware of
our neighbours, and since we have some yappy dogs in neighbourhood, we try
our best not to allow Kiba to make a nuisance of himself. But Kiba's recall
sucks at the best of times (we work on it, but it's a work in progress) and
an excited Kiba is brainless, driven only by smell and instinct. He's a toy
dog, but he's still a hunting dog, deep down. Unfortunately, he's not the
brightest bulb in the display.

But I'm sure you meant "what do we do he barks for no reason", right? Well,
our first instinct is to bark back. "Kiba, knock it off!" is heard, loudly.
"Knock it off" is the chosen phrase if he makes a fuss, usually in his
crate. Others might use the word "settle". Same thing, different words.
My husband isn't quite so kind. "Shut the **** up!" has been known to be
heard. He's really usually a very good dog, and I don't mean to give the
impression that he's a yappy little *******. He isn't. He does like being
with us all the time, and if he thinks we are leaving him in his crate too
long, he may bark to be released. We DON'T let him out if he's barking. We
DO if he isn't, and we want to let him out. If we need him to stay in
there because we're going out and can't take him with us (an unusual
occasion) we may need to tell him to "knock it off" on our way out the door.
We don't allow him free access to the house if we're not home. I have
filmed him while alone, and know he doesn't suffer "separation anxiety" as
such, but we have heard from a close neighbour that he has barked when left
alone in the house, uncrated. There is never a peep from him if crated, and
I've parked a camera in front of his crate while we were out, and he just
sleeps, barely even changing position. Not a single whine, cry, or anxious
moment. So, we crate him if we go out.

He also sleeps in a crate at night. He used to sleep with us, but in his
short life he's had two major surgeries, as well as a herniated back, all of
which prevented him from any physical activity for a long amount of time,
not mention the accursed "cone of shame". So, he sleeps in a crate.

Sheesh, I really am trying to answer your question! He barks, we yell, or
clap our hands, trying to distract him. He runs from one end of the room to
the other, or one door to the next. If he has reacted to me rustling a
bag, I rustle it again, louder, showing him the bag, "Look, bonehead!! It's
me!!". He will stop if I bring him to me and make him sit at my feet.
It's his comfort position, between my feet, back to me, and I can reach
around and touch his chest. When he feels the need for comfort, or if he's
frightened or nervous of something, he will tuck himself between my feet,
knowing I will protect him. If I have hands on him, I can feel him start to
bark again, and can stop him with an "uh!".

I DON'T give him a treat just for sitting there. I DO give him a treat if I
crumple the plastic bag up and he doesn't bark.

I've leashed him, and kept him near me, so I can reassure him, "thank" him
for his warning,

Nah, that's the wrong thing to do (without also having an "off"
switch). He might just be doing "stuff" to get more "thanks." I.e.,
you may be unintentionally reinforcing the barking behavior.

while trying to let him know that I will guard him if there
really is danger. But I'd rather he learn not to bark needlessly, than
spend all his time on a leash in the house.
The latest "method" I've tried is keeping treats in a candy bag, and if I
rattle something that makes him bark, I quickly grab the bag, rattle it,
and
give him a treat out of it,

Why not actually teach him to bark? You're almost there already.
Rattle the bag (or any other thing that gets him barking) to get him
to start barking, then command him: "Kiba...Speak! Speak! Speak!"
Then, when he starts to bark again, immediately reward him with and
verbal and physical praise, "Good boy!", or even give him a treat.
Rinse, lather, and repeat, as needed. Soon, you will have a dog that
barks on command.

We have a trick much like that already. My husband has taught Kiba to speak
"quietly". If Kiba barks loudly, perhaps in anticipation of a walk, Paul
will put his finger to his lips, "Shh! INDOOR voice!" and Kiba will just
"talk" instead of bark. It's like a rowr, rowr, rowr. Hmmm, as I type this
I am seeing perhaps a solution.... We use the cue word "Whisper" and Kiba
will vocalize softly, with no barking, just a whispery growly kind of noise.


Remember, good timing is always crucial. You may not always have a
treat handy, but you can (and should, immediately reward him
verbally). Giving the dog a "good boy" or a treat several minutes, or
even several seconds, after the fact does nothing but confuse the heck
out of the dog.

That one seems to be helping, but my husband says I'm going
to teach him to bark so he can get a treat! I don't agree, but then, I
don't really know what to do anyway.

Which is why you also need to teach him to stop barking (i.e., the
"off" switch). And which is done in pretty much the same way. When he
barks and you want him to stop, command him: "Kiba...Quiet!". As soon
as he stops barking, reward him with praise, or even give him a treat.
Rinse, lather, repeat, as needed.

Don't do both at the same time. First, teach him to bark on command.
And after he's got that down pretty good, go on and teach him to stop
barking on command. Use words/commands that you'd normally use, e.g.
if you would normally say "no bark!" instead of "quiet!", use that
command instead, etc. Just keep it simple.

I don't mind an alert bark. It's one of the reasons we keep dogs,
although
not a requirement for me. I understand it, though, and don't begrudge
Kiba
the need to warn us that something is in the yard that shouldn't be there.

If you teach him to bark on command, and to stop on command, which is
actually pretty easy to do with a dog that already barks a lot, you
can have your cake, and eat it too, Phyrie.

Give it a try.

--
Dogman

You've given me some good ideas to try, Dogman. Thanks for the input. I
think we just haven't really thought about training this out, we just want
him to stop!! Instant results are always more desirable! Work, not so
much. LOL!! This being a new behaviour, too, I think has stalled our
thinking about it sensibly. We have been more focused on "WHY" rather than
"HOW TO FIX".

Thanks,
Phyrie

"Phyrie" wrote:


Unfortunately, he's not the brightest bulb in the display.


Maybe not, but he's gorgeous! I have a Persian cat who fits that
description as well - beautiful but not the smartest baby in the bunch.
Good luck with the barking issue.

"Phyrie" wrote:


You've given me some good ideas to try, Dogman. Thanks for the input. I
think we just haven't really thought about training this out, we just want
him to stop!! Instant results are always more desirable! Work, not so
much. LOL!! This being a new behaviour, too, I think has stalled our
thinking about it sensibly. We have been more focused on "WHY" rather
than "HOW TO FIX".

Thanks,
Phyrie

Focusing on "why" rather than "how to fix" is something I've done before
too, and I can completely understand it, seeing as how it's a new behavior
for Kiba. Let us know if Dogman's suggestions work, since barking can be a
real problem when you have neighbors close enough to complain. Remy's not a
barker, but my first dog was, and for the life of me I can't remember how I
got her to stop (too many years ago). Then again, she was an easy girl to
train.

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 May 2010 19:57:54 -0700, "Phyrie"

We can't catch him, and he
doesn't seem to hear us calling him back to the house.

Do you really think it's because he can't hear you, kiddo?

Not really, no. When I was doing my research on this breed and looking for
a breeder, I ran into lots of owner/breeders who consistently said, "Never
allow a Cavalier off-leash." I found this odd, but read it, and heard it,
over and over. Once I brought Kiba home, I found out why the breeder was so
insistent about it, that and a fenced yard. Once Kiba's nose goes down,
it's almost as if all other senses are turned off, and all he can do is
smell, smell, smell. It's almost impossible to get his attention. Visiting
my daughter, this has been a very dangerous activity for Kiba. She lives on
a very busy street with lots of traffic, pedestrians walking other dogs,
kids on ATV's, and dirtbikers winging their way down the easement beside my
daughter's house. Her front yard is NOT fenced, and if the Grandkids leave
the door open, Kiba goes out the door and down the street, smelling,
smelling, smelling. He's CROSSED the street when out on his unauthorized
walks. We run after him, but his head never moves from the ground. He
isn't running away from us, he's walking towards the new smells. He doesn't
try to avoid us coming up on him. He let's us snap on a leash and walk
back. There is no "catch-me-if-you-can". He just can't seem to resist all
the new smells out there! Can he hear us calling him? Yes. Does he feel
the need to obey us and come back? Obviously, no. He's a smelling fool.
Walking with him on-leash, this is less of a problem. He's, of course, a
puller, and I've worked on that with him, to good result. As I don't walk
well anymore, my husband is the dog walker, and he uses a Flexi-leash.
*shudder* But we live in a rural area, with no sidewalks, little traffic,
and lots of free running animals, dogs, cats, and others. There must be a
whole lot to smell out there! So my husband allows Kiba to roam as he
likes, at least the extent the long leash lets him (it's fourteen feet long,
I think). But I digress. Here at home, we have a very well fenced yard,
and Kiba is perfectly safe to roam in the yard. I live on a dirt lane with
only a few houses around us, and when Kiba occasionally leaves the yard
without our permission (usually the Grandkids leave the gate open) he goes
as far at the next door neighbour's, who like him and give him treats until
we come and fetch him.

We are very aware of
our neighbours, and since we have some yappy dogs in neighbourhood, we try
our best not to allow Kiba to make a nuisance of himself. But Kiba's
recall
sucks at the best of times (we work on it, but it's a work in progress)
and
an excited Kiba is brainless, driven only by smell and instinct. He's a
toy
dog, but he's still a hunting dog, deep down. Unfortunately, he's not the
brightest bulb in the display.

In his 3.5 years, how much time would you say you've put in on recall
training? Come on now, be honest.

I couldn't say. We paid a behaviourist $350 to help us, but we didn't like
her methods, and she and my husband were like oil and water. We still use
some of her techniques (she was quite helpful teaching "leave it" and
"release"), but most have fallen by the wayside. We play Puppy Ping Pong at
least three times a week, and I call Kiba, for no particular reason,
probably half a dozen times a day, just to make him come to me. He gets a
treat each time he comes, and he's 99.9% in the house, 95% in the yard.
I've never added up the amount of time we spend, but it's not much, which is
your point, right? ;-D

But I'm sure you meant "what do we do he barks for no reason", right?

Not really, because there's always a reason.

You may not know what the reason is, but the dog knows.

But it shouldn't make any difference what the reason is. With proper
training, you should be able to make him bark on command, and stop
barking on command, no matter what the reason is.

Well,
our first instinct is to bark back. "Kiba, knock it off!" is heard,
loudly.
"Knock it off" is the chosen phrase if he makes a fuss, usually in his
crate.

It's okay to use that phrase, as long as you're %100 consistent with
it.

My husband isn't quite so kind. "Shut the **** up!" has been known to be
heard.

You know that's counter-productive, right?

Yeah, it's also not fair to my husband. While I was typing up my reply, I
asked him, "What do we do when Kiba barks?" and he immediately said "Tell
him shut the **** up." so I included that, but it must have seemed like
that's ALL he says, and that's not true. He's actually very good at
following my instructions, and is willing to try anything to help. He's not
up on "modern" dog training methods (all of his dogs as a young boy ran free
all over, never fenced or leashed, rode in backs of pickups, and never saw
vets or had medications. Puppy shots, and that was it!) so he follows my
lead in matters pertaining to Kiba.

If you and your husband and your dog aren't all "singing from the same
songbook," you can expect "problems".

In fact, I think there's a story about a certain tower in the Book of
Genesis that illustrates this problem (so to speak) pretty well.

He's really usually a very good dog, and I don't mean to give the
impression that he's a yappy little *******. He isn't. He does like
being
with us all the time, and if he thinks we are leaving him in his crate too
long, he may bark to be released.

When you're home? If so, why is he in his crate when you're at home?

We DON'T let him out if he's barking. We
DO if he isn't, and we want to let him out.

But why is he in there?

I can see how I was misunderstood. We put him in his crate before we go
out, and sometimes we don't leave right away, gathering up car keys, getting
sweaters, etc. Normal "getting ready to go" stuff. When we come home,
usually grocery-laden (have I mentioned that I live on a tiny island and
must travel to the mainland for shopping etc?) we leave the gate open to
fetch and carry bags from the car, so we often leave Kiba in his crate until
we are in the house, gate closed. He's not put in his crate when we are
home, except at night, where his night crate is in my bedroom, for the
reasons I stated earlier. I haven't heard him bark in his crate in months,
mind you, so I don't know how relevant this information is to the situation.

If we need him to stay in
there because we're going out and can't take him with us (an unusual
occasion) we may need to tell him to "knock it off" on our way out the
door.
We don't allow him free access to the house if we're not home. I have
filmed him while alone, and know he doesn't suffer "separation anxiety" as
such, but we have heard from a close neighbour that he has barked when
left
alone in the house, uncrated. There is never a peep from him if crated,
and
I've parked a camera in front of his crate while we were out, and he just
sleeps, barely even changing position. Not a single whine, cry, or
anxious
moment. So, we crate him if we go out.

That's smart, and I'm sure your neighbors appreciate it.

Ha! Kiba is the one dog that the neighbours DON'T complain about! We hear
the dog behind us (a min. Schnauzer) bark for literally eight hours at a
time. I've recorded it and burned it onto CD to give to the owners. They
put the dog in the backyard, go out and the dog does not shut up until they
come back. You would think that it would tire, or wear it's vocal cords out
or something!! In the summer it's especially irritating as I can't leave my
back door open to catch a breeze, as the dog is so loud and annoying. Once,
I was in my yard, working on a painting, and I had to pack up my supplies,
as I couldn't work in that noise! I have had to keep the doors and windows
all shut to try to keep the noise out! They say they are going to put a
bark collar on it, but I don't know if those things work or not, and I have
a feeling it may be cruel, but I don't know. I don't know why they won't
leave the dog inside when they go out, but they don't. They have asked Paul
how we trained Kiba NOT to bark, as they hear Kiba bark once or twice, and
then stop. Well, it's because we don't ALLOW him to bark mindlessly
outside! If he is out for potty alone, and we hear him bark, we immediately
go out and stop him. It's just being a good neighbour. Our neighbours
immediately to our left are a much older couple, with no pets, and ill
health. I was out in the garden one day with Kiba, and Ben, the old man,
came out into his garden. Kiba spotted him, and started to bark. I stopped
him and apologized to Ben. He said, "Oh, never mind that! That's what dogs
are for! I hear you and Paul calling him in if he barks, and Wallie (his
wife) and I really appreciate it. Now if only we could get them (he
indicates the Schnauzer's yard with his thumb) to do that same!" Very nice
man. Both Paul and I feel very strongly that no one should suffer just
because I wanted a dog.

[...]
Sheesh, I really am trying to answer your question! He barks, we yell, or
clap our hands, trying to distract him. He runs from one end of the room
to
the other, or one door to the next. If he has reacted to me rustling a
bag, I rustle it again, louder, showing him the bag, "Look, bonehead!!
It's
me!!". He will stop if I bring him to me and make him sit at my feet.
It's his comfort position, between my feet, back to me, and I can reach
around and touch his chest. When he feels the need for comfort, or if
he's
frightened or nervous of something, he will tuck himself between my feet,
knowing I will protect him. If I have hands on him, I can feel him start
to
bark again, and can stop him with an "uh!".

Try to stop all of the above, and start actually training him to bark
on command, like I described in a previous post.

But first get your husband on board, because if he doesn't cooperate
here, you likely won't solve the problem.

Oh, he's on board, I just don't know where to take him!

[...]
Why not actually teach him to bark? You're almost there already.
Rattle the bag (or any other thing that gets him barking) to get him
to start barking, then command him: "Kiba...Speak! Speak! Speak!"
Then, when he starts to bark again, immediately reward him with and
verbal and physical praise, "Good boy!", or even give him a treat.
Rinse, lather, and repeat, as needed. Soon, you will have a dog that
barks on command.

We have a trick much like that already. My husband has taught Kiba to
speak
"quietly". If Kiba barks loudly, perhaps in anticipation of a walk,

Then STOP RIGHT THERE! That's an excellent opportunity for teaching
him to bark on command!

Don't waste it.

Paul
will put his finger to his lips, "Shh! INDOOR voice!" and Kiba will just
"talk" instead of bark. It's like a rowr, rowr, rowr. Hmmm, as I type
this
I am seeing perhaps a solution.... We use the cue word "Whisper" and Kiba
will vocalize softly, with no barking, just a whispery growly kind of
noise.

That's okay. Now train him to "Speak!"

[...]
You've given me some good ideas to try, Dogman. Thanks for the input.

You bet. You're almost there; you have a dog that already barks a lot.
It's harder to do with dogs that don't normally bark much.

I think we just haven't really thought about training this out, we just
want
him to stop!! Instant results are always more desirable!

"Instant results" usually don't last very long, so do it the right
way, the long-lasting way.

Work, not so
much. LOL!! This being a new behaviour, too, I think has stalled our
thinking about it sensibly. We have been more focused on "WHY" rather
than
"HOW TO FIX".

Yeah, don't worry so much about the why, because, at best, it's just
conjecture on our part. Focus on the fix.

Good luck!

--
Dogman

I think I am seeing what we need to do. And I don't think it will be that
difficult. We DO have a good base (we can get Kiba to vocalize on command
already) so we just need to expand on that. Kiba jarred his shoulder
yesterday, so is being quite quiet today, and I don't want to get him all
excited by asking him to bark today. He can rest, and then we start
tomorrow! I'm hopeful...

Phyrie

"starcat" wrote in message
m...


Focusing on "why" rather than "how to fix" is something I've done before
too, and I can completely understand it, seeing as how it's a new
behavior for Kiba.

It's not a new behaviour, it's an extension of an existing behaviour. It
seems daft to us humans that Kiba has somehow thinks the noises made by
Phyrie are connected to wildlife being in the yard but somehow he *has*
made that *connection* and it can happen very easily. It has become a
conditioned response.
Ali

"Phyrie" wrote in message
...

There has been a great deal of animal activity outside our house this
spring. We are inundated by raccoons, deer and other "critters" that
come into our yard, up onto the porches, and cause mayhem if they can.
Kiba takes these invasions very personally, although I shudder to think
he might actually ever CATCH a full-grown 'coon. He would be outweighed,
and out-muscled, for sure. The reason I mention the wildlife is that I
think it may have some, or a lot, to do with our little problem.

My own dog is timid but he goes nuts when he hears a fox in the garden
and he has done the same thing as Kiba when I let him out to the toilet at
night , run around the fenced garden barking his head off. It's self
rewarding , it's very exciting , he enjoys it and his body gets flooded
with lots of feel good chemicals and it's the same for Kiba.

. You can almost hear him saying, "Warning! Warning!". He runs to the
door, wanting out to go kill whatever he thinks is out there. It has
been getting quite out of hand. Rattling a paper I'm reading, dropping
my reading glasses on my drawing table, but most often rustling of
plastic bags, like the ones chips or nuts come in causes him to get all
excited and BARK!

He's somehow made connections between your actions here and wildlife
outside.
It *might* possibly be that when you have gone to the door to scare off the
wildlife when he barks or to let him out to the toilet that you have put
things down such as your glasses or your packet of chips which would make a
noise and that's how he made the connection.


We have tried re-direction. I can see his frustration with that, as he
thinks he is warning us, and needs us to take care, and pay attention.
I've leashed him, and kept him near me, so I can reassure him, "thank"
him for his warning, while trying to let him know that I will guard him
if there really is danger. But I'd rather he learn not to bark
needlessly, than spend all his time on a leash in the house.

Saying thank you and acknowledging his warning has been the usual advice
given on this newsgroup. I think in Kiba's case, his behaviour has gone too
far for that to be of any help. It's exciting for him if you go outside
and scare off the intruders or if he is allowed outside himself. I would
say he is frustrated that this doesn't happen because he enjoys it and not
frustrated because he feels he needs you to take care of him or guard him
and you (in your eyes ) aren't doing that.


The latest "method" I've tried is keeping treats in a candy bag, and if I
rattle something that makes him bark, I quickly grab the bag, rattle it,
and give him a treat out of it, so he can see not only does he not need
to bark, but it's me, myself, that's making the noise, and if he stops
barking, he gets a treat. That one seems to be helping, but my husband
says I'm going to teach him to bark so he can get a treat! I don't
agree, but then, I don't really know what to do anyway.


If Kiba is beginning to respond to treats then she could find it
equally or nearly as rewarding as the barking and running to the door. Dogs
will do what is the most rewarding. If you cut out going to the door when
she barks to scare off critters and also stop saying Thank you that will
make it less rewarding for her to bark .
Generally, shaking treats in a candy bag is a good way of getting a dog's
attention and getting them to come back to you because he makes the
connection between the noise and the treat . It becomes a conditioned
response. I use this to get my pets to come to me , if I don't have a bag
handy I make a kissy noise. This works for my cat, dog and rabbit inside
and outside my house.

Make sure Kiba is conditioned to the candy bag first, rattle it and treat a
few times , rather like "charging" a clicker What you can do is not wait
for him to bark but set up a situation where you are ready with your candy
bag and an item that makes him bark such as your glasses. Have him close
by you and put your glasses down gently , rattle the bag as soon as they
touch the table or what ever and give him the treat as quickly as possible
before he reacts by barking . Keep doing this so he becomes accustomed to
it and doesn't bark . You build up the noise the glasses make until he
doesn't react when you drop them . You can then work on the other things
that make him bark. If he gets the treats before he barks, he obviously
won't be rewarded for barking and won't learn to bark for a treat.
If you cannot get the treat out of the bag quickly enough , then start by
holding treat in your hand and tossing it too him as you put your item
down. Once he expects a treat you can wait a second or too later if he is
not barking. Once you have built up the time , you can start with the candy
bag. When you want to change a dog's behaviour you break it down into small
parts, as small as necessary. Dolly steps rather than giant steps

I think dogs do switch off when they follow a scent and you can't always
be sure they they hear you. I'm sure it's happened to most people at some
time, when they have been so engrossed in what they are doing they haven't
heard someone else calling or talking to them .
Is it possible for one of you to go outside with Kiba at night and have
him on a long leash to start with? Watch him carefully, be ready to shake
the candy bag before he starts barking, you can reel him in with the leash
if you are too late or he doesn't respond.

Al

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 May 2010 14:30:07 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:

[...]
I think I am seeing what we need to do. And I don't think it will be that
difficult.

Good, and I hope you will at least give it a good try.

The rest of your post was painful for me to read, kiddo, and I also
hope that you will spend more time teaching Kiba to reliably recall,
because it could one day save your dog's life. And I also wish you
would put all that nonsense from your breeder aside. I have an entire
kennel full of hard-charging hunting dogs that would rather hunt
("smell...smell...smell") than eat, and yet they will stop on a dime
(and give me a nickel back in change), when commanded to do so, and
then immediately return to my side, and at distances of 300-400 yards,
in hot pursuit of game.

It can be done with Cavaliers, too, but you have to use the right
techniques, methods, tools, etc., and put in the time. I could be
wrong, but I think you may be using those comments made by your
breeder as an excuse to more or less forget about training your dog to
recall reliably. It's also okay to get mad at me for saying these
things, because I can take it. And I'd be guilty of negligence if I
didn't. Besides, everyone's mad at me these days, and that's okay too.

Good luck!

--
Dogman

No excuses, just the information I was given at the time. As was pointed
out to me in this very group, Cavs run agility and compete in obedience, so
they must have recall in them somewhere! You're right, of course. We
haven't spent as much time or effort on recall as we should. Since he's
rarely out of our reach, it's not one that we've really worked on. Funny
how you don't miss it, until you really, really need it! It's also
difficult to give the full picture in just a few lines. Kiba doesn't have
the kind of training you describe in your dogs, but he's really not running
amok like a ill-mannered savage, either. We DO train, just not as much as
we should.

My own health has been steadily declining this year, although I just had a
facet joint injection of prednisone in my spine, and I'm feeling better this
week than I have in many years. I am hopeful I may even be able to walk
with Kiba after my next injections. If I was more capable, I'm sure I would
have devoted more time to working on our issues. I have purchased the
"Really Reliable Recall" book and DVD, but somehow we just never got around
to working on it, other than Puppy Ping Pong, which I can do with my
husband, in the house, sitting down. Add to that the fact that it seems
poor Kiba has spent almost half his life being confined to his crate, with
on-leash-only potty breaks, due to health issues, and we somehow never have
time. Just two nights ago, the bonehead misjudged the height of the hassock
he was trying to jump up on, and he rammed his front feet into the side of
it. He now has wrenched a shoulder, and possibly his back, AGAIN! This
poor little dog must have born under a black cloud. The last couple of
months have been so good for him, after recovering from a herniated disk in
his back in the winter. We were able to play fetch again for the first time
in five months, and now this! *sigh* He'll be back on his feet in a few
days, we hope, and we'll get to work then. We are going away the end of
June, and I would like to have him healthy and sound to go to the sitters.
I am not trying to make excuses, mind you, I'm just trying to give you a
bigger picture. I know I've been a lazy-ass, too!

I wouldn't get mad at anyone for trying to help my dog. That would be
stupid. You're not saying anything that isn't true, and I know you have my
dog's best interests at heart. I may not always comply, but I'll always
listen, to reasonable suggestions. Kiba is our PET, and we don't have a
great need for him to be highly trained, as an obedience or agility
competitor does, but we do expect him to have the basics. Of which recall
is one, I know! He sits real good... :-D

Phyrie

"Dogman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 May 2010 14:06:15 -0700, "Phyrie"
wrote:

[...]
I wouldn't get mad at anyone for trying to help my dog. That would be
stupid. You're not saying anything that isn't true, and I know you have
my
dog's best interests at heart. I may not always comply, but I'll always
listen, to reasonable suggestions.

It's your dog, Phyrie. I can't force you to do anything, but I can
(and will) point out dangerous "things", especially those that may
even get your dog killed one day.

Kiba is our PET, and we don't have a
great need for him to be highly trained, as an obedience or agility
competitor does, but we do expect him to have the basics. Of which recall
is one, I know!

It's the one that, most of all, can save his life one day.

He sits real good.

That's a very good one too, because if you can get him to immediately
"sit" on command, you may be able to prevent him from running into
traffic, but it must be an immediate "sit," and it must be reliable,
which means reliable with distractions (e.g., squirrels, rabbits,
bikers, cars, etc.).

Anyway, I've had my say, and I hope you will follow through. But the
rest is up to you.

Again, he doesn't need to know a lot of commands, but the ones he does
know should be important ones (the ones that concern his safety), and
those are the ones you should focus on, until he's got them down pat.

Good luck!

--
Dogman

Let's go farther than "luck". If you had the chance to help Kiba and me,
what would you do? Where would you begin with us? Without seeing us and
actually knowing us in real life, is it possible to give me play-by-play
exercises we can do to accomplish a good recall? I have the books, and
DVD's, but without hands on instruction, I struggle to utilize the methods.
If I had a list, perhaps, of what to do today, tomorrow and the next day,
clear and understandable, I think it would help us. I can only imagine how
difficult a request this is, as you know nothing about me, or my dog. Would
it make a difference if you knew he was timid, a scaredy-cat in fact? He
loves treats. He has a fairly high prey drive, and "kills" his toys with
great relish and abandon often. What would help you help us? I am NOT
being facetious, in case you think I am. If you would be willing to give us
detailed instructions on how you accomplished your excellent recall, I would
be very grateful. Nothing would please me more than to be able to walk down
the lane, with Kiba at my side, confident that if he strayed off the path, I
could call him back without fear he would ignore me. Of course, with my
back, I'd love just to walk down that lane at all, but that's a whole
'nother thing, and out of the realm of your expertise, I suspect! LOL!

If this is too large a request, I'd totally understand. Without knowing us,
and where we're at, it might be difficult to assist us. Of course, if you
train dogs for a living, you sure as hell don't want to work for free,
either! And I don't blame you for that at all. Either way, I do appreciate
your concern.

Phyrie

"Phyrie" wrote in message
...

Last night there was so much noise and activity on the back porch, I went
out to yell at whatever was out there. Luckily, Kiba was already asleep in
his crate, and wasn't bothered by the noise. Apparently the biggest,
baddest raccoon in the neighbourhood is pissed off that I've moved the cat's
food off the big chest freezer and into the house, and wanted to let me know
he was pissed off. He tossed around a huge cardboard box, and moved some
other things looking for his (usually) easy dinner. I jumped out of bed and
opened the back door to yell at him, and WOW! was he big!! He was at least
twice the size of Kiba, although I don't think he could possibly weigh as
much as he looked like he did. He dashed off, but I saw his footprints on
the wooden porch, since it was raining last night. I had enough thought to
take a picture of them. Please ignore the ugly bare human foot in the pic,
it's just there for scale! If it helps to tell the size, I wear a ladies
size 8. Sort of makes me understand why Kiba gets so excited when these
beasts come around! *sheesh*!

Phyrie

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/v...G3570Small.jpg