Put it this way, say I decided that it was good to beat my child once a
day,
with a very big stick. Child turns out to be a serial killer. Now, do I
get the blame for this or was the child born evil.

#1: Dogs aren't people. #2: No regular here beats their dog daily with a
very big stick. Some dogs are screwed up. Some dogs are born that way,
others are made that way.

Sometimes we come upon someone else's problem and try to solve it.
Sometimes it's not possible to do so.

Last I checked, Jerry isn't actively involved in rescue. Nor has he
bothered to back up his claims of being an excellent trainer and
behaviorist. Some of these very people that he condemns for euthanizing
their aggressive dogs OFFERED to send their dogs to him. He made excuse
after excuse to not have to work with them. Apparantly he's not willing to
do anything but condemn anyone who gives advice that doesn't follow his
directly.

Others he condemns simply because they are respected by others here. Have
you seen his responses to some of those who have lost their pets, even if
they've never euthanized an animal that wasn't dying anyways?

Sorry, but Jerry has no message besides hatred for anyone who isn't him. He
blames everyone else for the sad state of the world around him, yet raises
not a single finger besides to type away at the newsgroups about his hatred
for people who are actually doing something.

~Emily


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"LytaA" wrote in message
...
[...]
Yes, Jerry's post are venomous and egomaniacal - he has a message to
convey
about human's insistence of repeating patterns of aggressive behaviour,
over
and over again.

Jerry is an obsessive/compulsive nutcase. Anyone who inundates a
newsgroup like he does has no grasp on reality, and no message to convey to
anyone, cos noone with any sense bothers reading the crap he posts.

Didnt I say, change ya tactics, huh??



"Emily Carroll" wrote in message
...

Put it this way, say I decided that it was good to beat my child once a
day,
with a very big stick. Child turns out to be a serial killer. Now, do
I
get the blame for this or was the child born evil.

#1: Dogs aren't people. #2: No regular here beats their dog daily with a
very big stick. Some dogs are screwed up. Some dogs are born that way,
others are made that way.

Sometimes we come upon someone else's problem and try to solve it.
Sometimes it's not possible to do so.

Last I checked, Jerry isn't actively involved in rescue. Nor has he
bothered to back up his claims of being an excellent trainer and
behaviorist. Some of these very people that he condemns for euthanizing
their aggressive dogs OFFERED to send their dogs to him. He made excuse
after excuse to not have to work with them. Apparantly he's not willing
to
do anything but condemn anyone who gives advice that doesn't follow his
directly.

Others he condemns simply because they are respected by others here. Have
you seen his responses to some of those who have lost their pets, even if
they've never euthanized an animal that wasn't dying anyways?

Sorry, but Jerry has no message besides hatred for anyone who isn't him.
He
blames everyone else for the sad state of the world around him, yet raises
not a single finger besides to type away at the newsgroups about his
hatred
for people who are actually doing something.

~Emily


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 7/14/2003

"LytaA" wrote in message
...
[...]
Yes, Jerry's post are venomous and egomaniacal - he has a message to
convey
about human's insistence of repeating patterns of aggressive behaviour,
over
and over again.

Jerry is an obsessive/compulsive nutcase. Anyone who inundates a
newsgroup like he does has no grasp on reality, and no message to convey to
anyone, cos noone with any sense bothers reading the crap he posts.

"LytaA" wrote in message
...
Didnt I say, change ya tactics, huh??


Oh, bull.

Jerry has apparently put me on his list of abusers, and detailed things I've
done to my dogs, none of which is true. I haven't changed; I never did any
of the things he accused me of.

Needless to say, I have him killfilled, but another poster didn't snip
Jerry's message, so I read one of his messages, and there I was, accused as
an abuser.

Jerry rants and raves about people who used to post on this group, and don't
any more. He takes things out of context, and blames everyone for doing the
same things, no matter what methods they use. And the only method that isn't
abusive is one advocated by someone who sucks up to Jerry. Another person
could say they do the same things, and Jerry would claim it's abusive.

And even if people have said that they've changed methods, that doesn't stop
him from going on and on and on. Never mind that some of what Jerry
advocates could kill a dog.

As far as changing tactics, you might find some people who've gone from
leash corrections to clicker training, and there are plenty of people who've
come to this group clueless with a new puppy and have made training mistakes
and learned better methods, but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who
does now or did before any of the things Jerry has accused them of.

Read his messages, if you want to, believe him if you want to, but I
seriously doubt you'll convince people here that Jerry's telling the truth
about them. After all, we know what we do in our own homes.

--
Donna

"It's even worse than that. Sometimes I think I'm living in a perpendicular
universe."

you can say that again tricia.....
"Tricia9999" wrote in message
...

people advocate violence towards animals to *CONTROL* them - but this
only encourages the animal to become insecure, volatile and
unpredictable.

And I'm sure you won't find anyone here who disagrees with that.

Lynn K. wrote:
"LytaA" wrote in message ...

Didnt I say, change ya tactics, huh??


You seem to believe that JH's goal is to spread the simple message
"Don't hurt dogs", and that he encounters resistance because of flawed
tactics.

Do you really think there is anyone who would argue with the Don't
hurt dogs message? Take a look at the response posters get when they
write about something they are doing with their dogs that is
detrimental. They get lots of polite, but straightforward responses
explaining why what they are doing is wrong, and suggesting what they
should do instead. And meaningless diatribes from JH.

I'm afraid that those of us who have seen JH's behavior since he 1st
appeared here believe his goals are very different. Just as people
actually actively involved with dog training or activities know him to
be a fraud. Buy his device, follow his manual with your personal dog,
defend his right to free speech. But be sure you have sufficient
information to assess the situation before proclaiming his goals and
methods worthy.

Lynn K.


you're a dog murderer





LYNN K. "I'LL PUT A BITER DOWN AS FAST AS ANYONE"


==============================================
On her role in killing dogs in the SF Bay area, a role she claims she
doesn't play anymoore.
==============================================


"I'll put down a biter as fast as anyone - provided I have seen the
behavior and know that the dog is in fact a biter."
--Lynn K.

-----------------------------

"I've been in dogs for over 40 years and worked with
many rescue organizations and with shelters in 3 states. I've
been in the position of evaluating court-seized dogs in bite
cases."
--Lynn K.

------------------------------


No. I evaluated Hera. It wasn't all poor upbringing and management.

Lynn K.


--------------------------

Exactly. A couple of years ago I evaluated a BC bitch in rescue who had
gotten in 20-25 bites on her foster family the 1st day in their home.
The problem was that there were a whole slew of people lined up who
wanted her because she was a dynamite herding dog, titled before she was
2, flashy, etc.. Most of these people were single women

[editor's note, like Melanie Lee Chang, who would
have had ZERO problems with this dog, even though
she's 1/10th the trainer Michael is]

into competitive herding who had no children or plans to have any.

Testing the dog revealed that she had a safety zone of about 3 ft and
would use her mouth to drive out anyone who came within that space
(other than whoever was holding her leash). She also would not tolerate
any entrance to her airspace. The deciding factor was that eye contact
was also a trigger and the severity of the bite increased with eye's
moved lowerer to her level. IOW, the shorter the person, the harder the
bite, and kids were shortest of all."

[This is HOWE lynn KillMooreDogs seals a
a dog's fate and this is HOWE SHE KILLS
DOGS. She kills them with WORDS, not with
poison. She lets sucker animal lovers or
sucker volunteers do the dirty work of
poisoning them and dumping their bodies,
after she condemns them to death with
her "evaluation"] --editor's note


We decided that even if we could feel perfectly safe with a person and
situation we placed her into, she still had to live in a world where
there were children and we couldn't, in good conscience, put a known
risk like her into that world. People's lives and situation change and
any adopter might have future contact with children that they don't have
at present.

She was put down.


[because of Lynn K.s Passionate concerns about
LIABILITY INSURANCE, the ONLY thing she cares
about, besides her REPUTATION as an "animal
lover" BWHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAAA!!!] --editor's note

Lynn K.
---------------------------


"I had a somewhat similar situation 2 weeks ago. I got a call from the
city pound informing me that a dog that had once been in our Humane
Society program had been picked up and was scheduled to die the next
day. After much research, I found out that the dog was never really one
of ours, but that a foster home we had briefly used, then fired, took a
litter, let most die needlessly, and this was the sole survivor. I got
the dog extended 24 hours, sent 6 interested parties to the pound to see
the dog, and ran to the pound to let them know the owner's contact info.
It turns out that they knew well who the owner was - over 20
complaints against her and the dog had been picked up twice that month.
She went to Mexico for a long vacation and left the dog in the back
yard, trusting neighbors to throw food over the fence. To make it
worse, I evaluated the dog as unsafe, and then the dog went for a kennel
worker and was declared unsafe by the pound, and only available to us.
The pound would not let the owner reclaim the dog, even if she were
available to do so. So that left me with -
- a dog with unclear legal ownership
- an unsuitable owner who wanted the dog, but couldn't have the dog
- an unadoptable dog for the general public
- a dog that couldn't go to anyone who would be able to help him
- and no foster homes or resources to take him into our rescue program.

The dog died. And I had to tell that irresponsible owner on her return
why her dog had to die."

Lynn K.

[it's always a tragedy and the dog
just up and dies. But Lynn KILL
won't mention her part in the
killing. She condemned that innocent
dog to death simply because it got lost.
But Lynn Kill will ignore that.
Lynn K always blames
someone else when she is involved in
killing a perfectly good dog.

The organizations Lynn K is
a part of GET PAID TO KILL DOGS,
and somebody has to make up stupid
reasons to kill perfectly good dogs
Because the STATE is paying those
"shelters" to ELIMINATE dogs & puppies
Lynn K. plays a role in that capacity,
despite her lies and denials. The STATE
needs those dogs dead, and Lynn Kill
helps them achieve their objective, like
she did in her part in the confiscation
and murder of the lost dog in the case
above. The dog HAD TO DIE, because Lynn
KILL said so.]
--editor's note

-----------------------------


Shows you what you know. It was SF, not LA, and I evaluated Hera.
She was fear aggressive. Period. No training of any kind on that
dog, much to the DA's chagrin because he wanted to be able to charge
them with Murder 2.

Lynn K.

[Hera was one of the dogs involved in the San Francisco Diane Whipple
dog fatality. Lynn K. frequently brags that she was involved in
evaluating that dog. That dog, of course, was killed]
--editor's note


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



There's several threads going on now in .behavior about dominance problems.

In one of them (HELP! Life or Death...) I gave the 21 management rules I
use for a dominant dog. For real hardcases, the other option is to
escalate to a full NILIF regime. Frankly, any dog that doesn't respond
to either of those options is a rogue, unsafe, and should be destroyed.

Lynn K.
--

[Lynn K. does not pull any punches
when it comes to killing dogs or
recommending that they be killed for
not getting with the program, or for
jumping up and playing with volunteers
at one of her "shelters"

ARRRRRRRGH!!!] --editor's note
----------------------------------------




--
mi.chael
li.ve...

..http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
..http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
..http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
..http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg
..http://dogtv.com/hope_attacks.mpg



================================================== ======
SHELLY IS THE ONLY ONE WHO DOESN'T THINK HATTIE IS STARVING

"when i got harriet she was emaciated, so i asked my vet for advice on
slowly adding weight to her. six months later i took harriet in for her
spring check-up and my vet was surprised that at how thin she still was."
--shelly couv.rette


"raises hand i've been told by three different vets that
harriet (53lbs) is *way* too skinny. we're still
vet-shopping, BTW."

--shelly couv.rette

"if you really can't resist
it when your dog pulls the "i'm starving!" routine G, you can give
him some frozen green beans or a small amount of plain pureed pumpkin.
i would also suggest putting the food out of his sight. i keep my
food--still inside the bags, which are tightly rolled down--inside
trash cans in the closed laundry room. that keeps it fresh and keeps
it out of my dogs' sight."

--shelly couv.rette

"heh. i get the opposite response. people think that poor little
harriet is positively starved to death. i've actually had people stop
me in the pet supply shop and tell me that i need to fatten her up!"

--shelly couv.rette


"i think that may be part of the problem. who wants to go to a
vet who tells you you're hurting your .widdle precious? i
think the other part is that some vets really don't *realize*
that what they consider proper weight is fat. after having
been told by a couple of vets that my dogs are too thin, i've
got a dim view of vets on that topic."

--shelly couv.rette

"my mom is kinda that way, but not *as* bad. she thinks that harriet is
awfully skinny, so feeding her table snax is okay. she tells me that
just a bite won't hurt."

--shelly couv.rette


NOBODY IS STARVING FAT PI.G SHELLY

NOBODY WILL STOP SHELLY ON THE STREET
AND TELL HER SHE IS STARVING HERSELF
shelly's fat face
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette/Wshelly2.jpg
================================================== =====


There are a lot of big fat women on these groups who starve their dogs
out of vanity, but shelly is a special case.

shelly is moor.e than a little bit beyond the pale

Shelly has OCD, and maybe she's just a little obsessive about measuring
out extra tiny and discrete portions with a tiny measuring cup, or
counting out pieces of green bean or pumpkin that she gives her dogs
when they give her the "I'm Starving" routine. When grandma tried to
give Hattie a snack, shelly probably went apeshit, because it was in
violation of her Obsessive need to oversee every tiny calorie that goes
into her widdle precious' mouth.

shelly's a special case, a special kind of dog abuser.

(Linda) wrote:
So, are you saying you did not use the pinch collar and cause your dog
to yelp? I am sure I read it in your post about your dogs first
class. Seems to me you are the one who is "delusional" if you want to
pretend that the yelp was from surprise rather than pain.

Yes, I did attend a pinch collar class, and my dog did yelp. And I
discontinued the class.

I haven't a clue how Jerry has twisted this one, since I have him killfiled.
But from years of watching him twist and exaggerate posts, I can guess that
I've now become a pinch-collar trainer whose motto is "no pain, no gain." :}

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.

In article ,
(Linda) wrote:

URK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
...
"LytaA"
wrote:
Yes, Jerry's post are venomous and egomaniacal - he has a message to
convey
about human's insistence of repeating patterns of aggressive behaviour,
over
and over again.

You're starting with an incorrect assumption.

People here do not do what Jerry accuses them of doing. If they did, I
would
understand your point.

So, are you saying you did not use the pinch collar and cause your dog
to yelp? I am sure I read it in your post about your dogs first
class. Seems to me you are the one who is "delusional" if you want to
pretend that the yelp was from surprise rather than pain.


Jerry is not just venomous and egomaniacal - he's also delusional.

Nope, he is someone who is trying the point out how often
people-trainers-resort to violence just like you!

Were there *any* trainers (I mean people who work with dogs in REAL LIFE
and not just on the internet) who did not jump dowm Leah's throat about
the improper use of the prong? She took an enormous amount of heat for
that for at least a week. Leah recognized that the guy she was trying to
learn something from was completely off the mark and she did the right
thing. What's your excuse for trumpeting a cruel, viscious man?

"LytaA" wrote:

all he
really wants is for people to cure *themselves* of their blinkered and
aggressive mindset attitudes, that tend to encroach on all things bright
and
beautiful -

Wrong. What he really wants is for people to spend $100 on his scam
device. All the rest is just stuff he invented over the years to try and
discredit people who called him on trying to make money from naive people
who posted asking for advice.

As a Holistic Therapist (check that one out on the internet if you dont
know
what it is!)

I know what both "holistic" and "therapist" mean. I also know that the
two terms together can mean anything from a well-trained Feldenkrais
therapist to a crackpot who falls for the babbling of a psychotic.

Check your bodies out NOW
as you read this post - I bet your tongue is locked tight against the roof
of your mouth, I bet your shoulders are just under your ears, I bet the
hands are taught across the keyboard, tensing up the wrist joints -

Sorry "matey"- nothing of the sort. 'Fraid your psychic powers aren't
working.


Yes, Jerry's post are venomous and egomaniacal - he has a message to
convey
about human's insistence of repeating patterns of aggressive behaviour,
over
and over again.

Nope. He has a cheap, overpriced, ineffective product to sell.

On 22 Jul 2003, sionnach opined:


"Dimpled Chad" opined:


Goes to show you that an isolated quote, without clarification or
research,
doesn't always mean what it looks like.

Not to mention the fact that Jerry doesn't just "quote" out of
context- he
also:

1. Embellishes. IOW, he inserts words into people's writing that
weren't
orginally there.
2. Creatively cuts and pastes. He'll take several posts- sometimes even
posts from two different people- and cut and paste bits together to make
them say something completely different.
3. Posts things written by several people, but attributes them to only
one of them, or attributes them to the wrong person.
4. Posts under fake names, giving himself support.

and, as I said:
5. Makes stuff up. For instance; He can't cite anywhere (either accurately or
out of context) where I say I hurt Frankie on a collar to cause his spinal
injury. He'll say so anyway, even though I don't even own a collar, and I
don't jurk him period.

--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com


Circular Definition: see Definition, Circular.