Got back from the Vets with her first real appointment. This specific vet
is new to us, but same group and ethics. (it's a group practice).

Poor Mabel Anne. She's got more issues than just age.

She failed the lyme disease test. The vet says with no way to know if she's
been treated, best to treat again. I agree. As a rescue with only the
history since being found wandering abandoned, this is best. She gets a
booster in 3 weeks. She shows none of the common walking issue symptoms but
she said once you have that one, it's life long though you can keep it at
bay. There's no way to tell if she'd been treated. Safer to retreat this
time than ignore and 'hope' she'd been treated.

She shows no longer positive for heartworms! Having had her 5th month of
pill on 1 January, this is good news. Apparently, she didn't have a really
bad case or took really well to the treatment. I explained tht while she
wasn't the *painfully* emaciated condition of Cash when we got him, she had
picked up probably 2-2.5 lbs since 20 Nov when we got her here. The vet
smiled and said 'add 2 more'.

Her chip shows fine and her rabies shots can be validated. State law
requires a rabies booster again second year then we shift to longer
interums. Due to lack on info on her background, she gets one again in July
2011.

She may have a tooth infection and is scheduled for a dental 13 Feb. She
may need up to 3 back teeth pulled. She has gingivitus (sp?).

She has cataracts but the vet said not to worry now as she can see fine and
they may hold as they are. Her eye pressure test is optimal.

She has a nasty type of ear infection and multiple meds to use as this
variety is hard to beat. She said, it may be why she went deaf (and she is,
totally, reacting only very very small amount on left ear but confirming
what we found with our attempts of nothing usable left for training).

All other blood tests excellent. Then time for the finger up the butt. Not
good. They took a sample of some sort off for a lab test. The exterior of
her anal glands and bladder feel abnormal. The blood test indicators they
can do at the vets that show kidney and liver issues show no problems and
the indicators commonly seen in cancer aren't there but this isn't an
indepth test for cancer. The lab test comes back in a week and we then know
if she needs more extensive tests for possibly metastatic cancer.

Age estimation, revised. She says, 'hard to tell with older dogs as they
age as they will, but I'd be suprised if she was younger than 12 and 14 is
more likely'. For those not aware of beagles, 14 is like Sammy at 17.

The good news, she doesn't have hip displasia (sp?) but probably arthritis.

*sigh*

Like Sammy, Mabel Anne had a remaining time of being a number on a cage or
the best we can provide for as long as her quality of life remains
enjoyable.

While waiting for some of the tests to come back, we discussed raw feeding.
Like I've said, the team I use approve of it. I explained her skin
condition when she arrived (New smart phone, I was able to show pictures off
photobucket) and that she's been on BW and grain free treats plus mostly raw
boneless addition to her BW and had just gotten a grinder. Approves totally
once she acertained I know what to feed and added that at her age, I may
want to suppliment if going totally raw based on the list of things I had
available but absolutely to grind first with her teeth.

This I might add is *not* a cost issue as she was not selling anything or
getting any 'kickback'. It was more like recommending an older human take a
few extra suppliments because they don't absorb things as well once very
elderly. Mostly the vet said 'make the grind heavy on joints as she needs
that but you knew it'. Chicken necks optimal for our current 'mix and
match' for her. Based on this, those with elder dogs *may* want to up that
portion of chicken necks.

Wish Mabel Anne and us luck.

Meantime, she's at home going to TOWN on a new bone she stole from Cash!

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 21:26:48 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

She failed the lyme disease test. The vet says with no way to know if she's
been treated, best to treat again. I agree. As a rescue with only the
history since being found wandering abandoned, this is best. She gets a
booster in 3 weeks. She shows none of the common walking issue symptoms but
she said once you have that one, it's life long though you can keep it at
bay. There's no way to tell if she'd been treated. Safer to retreat this
time than ignore and 'hope' she'd been treated.

That's unfortunate about the Lyme test. When you say she gets a
booster in 3 weeks, what do you mean?

She shows no longer positive for heartworms! Having had her 5th month of
pill on 1 January, this is good news. Apparently, she didn't have a really
bad case or took really well to the treatment.

That's great news! She had actual heartworm treatment (I can't
remember the name of the drug they use) and then 5 months of
ivermectin? Some dogs will test negative after that amount of time.
Very good!

Her chip shows fine and her rabies shots can be validated. State law
requires a rabies booster again second year then we shift to longer
interums. Due to lack on info on her background, she gets one again in July
2011.

Too bad they won't let her go on a 3-year schedule at her age.

She may have a tooth infection and is scheduled for a dental 13 Feb. She
may need up to 3 back teeth pulled. She has gingivitus (sp?).

Any inflammation is "itis" and gingivitis is inflammation of the
gingiva. Obviously this is an area where the breed differences play a
big part - if we took in a 12 to 14 year-old sighthound that probably
never had a dental and the vet thought it would lose 3 teeth, we'd be
thrilled! Losing 3 teeth won't slow her down at all, and she might
feel a lot better with them gone - dogs usually do when the teeth are
inflamed or infected.

She has a nasty type of ear infection and multiple meds to use as this
variety is hard to beat. She said, it may be why she went deaf (and she is,
totally, reacting only very very small amount on left ear but confirming
what we found with our attempts of nothing usable left for training).

One of my Borzoi came from a group of 14 that were *severely*
neglected as well as abused, and they all had infections of both ears.
One dog was thought to be deaf but regained some (if not all - I don't
remember) of her hearing when the ear infections were completely
cleared up. Another required human antibiotics via IV to clear up his
infections. Long-standing ear infections can be very difficult to get
rid of and can definitely cause hearing loss. It would be great if
Mabel Anne got some hearing back once hers are healed.

All other blood tests excellent. Then time for the finger up the butt. Not
good. They took a sample of some sort off for a lab test. The exterior of
her anal glands and bladder feel abnormal. The blood test indicators they
can do at the vets that show kidney and liver issues show no problems and
the indicators commonly seen in cancer aren't there but this isn't an
indepth test for cancer. The lab test comes back in a week and we then know
if she needs more extensive tests for possibly metastatic cancer.

I'm a little confused. The vet thinks she may have metastatic cancer
based on a rectal exam? I think if it were my dog I'd take a wait and
see approach to this rather than doing extensive testing. If the dog
has metastatic cancer, there isn't anything that can be done anyway,
and if that's what's going on you'll know soon enough.

Age estimation, revised. She says, 'hard to tell with older dogs as they
age as they will, but I'd be suprised if she was younger than 12 and 14 is
more likely'. For those not aware of beagles, 14 is like Sammy at 17.

Well, 14 is pretty old for most breeds except toys, and I don't know
that Beagles age any faster than other breeds their size. It's not
unheard of for a Siberian to hit 15 or even 16, but 14 is still pretty
old for them. 17 is *very* old for any breeds except toys.

The good news, she doesn't have hip displasia (sp?) but probably arthritis.

Nothing you could do about dysplasia at this point anyway, and no
surprise that she'd have arthritis at her age.

Like Sammy, Mabel Anne had a remaining time of being a number on a cage or
the best we can provide for as long as her quality of life remains
enjoyable.

Yes. And getting her physical issues taken care of will go a long way
to improving her quality of life.

This I might add is *not* a cost issue as she was not selling anything or
getting any 'kickback'. It was more like recommending an older human take a
few extra suppliments because they don't absorb things as well once very
elderly. Mostly the vet said 'make the grind heavy on joints as she needs
that but you knew it'. Chicken necks optimal for our current 'mix and
match' for her. Based on this, those with elder dogs *may* want to up that
portion of chicken necks.

And here I disagree with your vet. If feeding ground, backs vs. necks
doesn't matter much - backs have a higher bone content. But whole
chicken necks are much too small for most breeds (including Beagles).
In terms of joint health from diet alone, beef trachea and gullet are
about the best source of chondroitin, and chicken feet are a great
source of glucosamine. I don't know how easy those things are to find
- my supplier has trachea and gullet (basically the esophagus, I
think) at $.79/pound and chicken feet at $1.09. I have no clue in the
world why chicken feet would cost more than chicken backs. She gave
me a small back of chicken feet last week, most likely in the hope
that my dogs would become addicted, heh.

Wish Mabel Anne and us luck.

Most definitely, good luck to you all.

Meantime, she's at home going to TOWN on a new bone she stole from Cash!

Sounds like her teeth and jaws aren't in too bad a shape then, which
is good.

"cshenk" wrote in message
...
She failed the lyme disease test. The vet says with no way to know if
she's been treated, best to treat again. I agree.

,,,,,,,,,I'd check Tick list for specific info on this issue. I don't know
if they've decided yet about treating a positive titer with no symptoms.
Also I think it depends on what test they used.:
http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/....exe?A0=TICK-L

Also, a compendium of links WRT tick diseases:
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ticklinks.htm

I'd highly recommend this page:
http://sites.google.com/site/blackgsd/lymedisease

She gets a
booster in 3 weeks.

,,,,,,,,,,,of what? This isn't a time to vx this dog, She probably
wouldn't respond anyway,

Her chip shows fine and her rabies shots can be validated. State law
requires a rabies booster again second year then we shift to longer
interums. Due to lack on info on her background, she gets one again in
July 2011.
..........if this dog isn't in better shape by then, I'd get the vet to
document it and at least put it off until the end of the year.

She may have a tooth infection and is scheduled for a dental 13 Feb. She
may need up to 3 back teeth pulled. She has gingivitus (sp?).

She has a nasty type of ear infection and multiple meds to use as this
variety is hard to beat. She said, it may be why she went deaf (and she
is, totally, reacting only very

The blood test indicators they
can do at the vets that show kidney and liver issues show no problems and
the indicators commonly seen in cancer aren't there but this isn't an
indepth test for cancer. The lab test comes back in a week and we then
know if she needs more extensive tests for possibly metastatic cancer.
,,,,,,,,,,,As already said, I'd hold off on worrying about this. I'd say
most of these issues are from having a dental infection and a trashed immune
system, Take care of that and things may change. Just give it some time.
I'd also supplement with EFAs and Vit E, maybe even A, plus Vit C

buglady
take out the dog before replying

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

She failed the lyme disease test. The vet says with no way to know if
she's
been treated, best to treat again. I agree. As a rescue with only the
history since being found wandering abandoned, this is best. She gets a
booster in 3 weeks. She shows none of the common walking issue symptoms
but
she said once you have that one, it's life long though you can keep it at
bay. There's no way to tell if she'd been treated. Safer to retreat this
time than ignore and 'hope' she'd been treated.

That's unfortunate about the Lyme test. When you say she gets a
booster in 3 weeks, what do you mean?

It comes in 1 shot, then a booster 3 weeks later. It was explained *very
carefully* that they can not tell if she'd ever been treated and can't tell
if it is a recent infection or one already treated. Apparently once they
have it, they are always going to test positive so only vet records of
treatment can be used. Since she's a rescue with only July 2010 records
known, this one they do not know. We only know the rescue place didnt treat
but I do not know if it was tested for. It is not very common in my area
though vets commonly will 'suggest' vaccination as it isnt unknown. Cash
was vaccinated just after we got him. (No, this one doesnt travel from pet
to pet).

She shows no longer positive for heartworms! Having had her 5th month of
pill on 1 January, this is good news. Apparently, she didn't have a
really
bad case or took really well to the treatment.

That's great news! She had actual heartworm treatment (I can't
remember the name of the drug they use) and then 5 months of
ivermectin? Some dogs will test negative after that amount of time.
Very good!

Yup. Vet was really happy. She's also got really GOOD heart sounds which
worried me as Cash doesn't so vet said 'probably caught early before any
damage other than treatment weight loss'.

Her chip shows fine and her rabies shots can be validated. State law
requires a rabies booster again second year then we shift to longer
interums. Due to lack on info on her background, she gets one again in
July
2011.

Too bad they won't let her go on a 3-year schedule at her age.

Sadly, this state doesnt allow until after 1st treatment then booster at one
year without evidence of issues. Mabel shows no issues of any reactions to
any of the shots she got (verbally verified with vet and foster before she
came to us, and by us after 24 hours of the ones she had to have again).

After that, they go 3 years for rabies if a record can be verified.
Meantime, she had a pretty good set yesterday and the worst that happened
was a warmish nose last night as she tried to steal Cash's bone that she
can't pickup but tried to nose to 'her bed' (heheh!)

She may have a tooth infection and is scheduled for a dental 13 Feb. She
may need up to 3 back teeth pulled. She has gingivitus (sp?).

Any inflammation is "itis" and gingivitis is inflammation of the
gingiva. Obviously this is an area where the breed differences play a
big part - if we took in a 12 to 14 year-old sighthound that probably
never had a dental and the vet thought it would lose 3 teeth, we'd be
thrilled! Losing 3 teeth won't slow her down at all, and she might
feel a lot better with them gone - dogs usually do when the teeth are
inflamed or infected.

True. There's no sign she's ever had a dental but there's no way to know
she hasn't. What we can tell is she has no discomfort eating or chewing
bones. THere may be only 1 tooth that has to go to keep her in comfort if
the metastatic cancer test comes back positive.

She's fed BW and various soft foods for now (some raw, some canned). Vet
said raw ground chicken necks and backs was a wonderful idea for her as an
addition. She was a little worried about minor mineral or vitimin issues
based specifically on her age.

She has a nasty type of ear infection and multiple meds to use as this
variety is hard to beat. She said, it may be why she went deaf (and she
is,
totally, reacting only very very small amount on left ear but confirming
what we found with our attempts of nothing usable left for training).

One of my Borzoi came from a group of 14 that were *severely*
neglected as well as abused, and they all had infections of both ears.
One dog was thought to be deaf but regained some (if not all - I don't
remember) of her hearing when the ear infections were completely
cleared up. Another required human antibiotics via IV to clear up his
infections. Long-standing ear infections can be very difficult to get
rid of and can definitely cause hearing loss. It would be great if
Mabel Anne got some hearing back once hers are healed.

Ah, we suspect not this time for recovery. See, we had them totally cleared
for a bit then dropped back to weekly cleanings. OOPS. Apparently it was
not cleared. Now poor Mabel is patiently getting 6 meds (all but one is a
wash sort) twice a day. She's quite good about it and enjoys the petting
afterwards.

All other blood tests excellent. Then time for the finger up the butt.
Not
good. They took a sample of some sort off for a lab test. The exterior
of
her anal glands and bladder feel abnormal. The blood test indicators they
can do at the vets that show kidney and liver issues show no problems and
the indicators commonly seen in cancer aren't there but this isn't an
indepth test for cancer. The lab test comes back in a week and we then
know
if she needs more extensive tests for possibly metastatic cancer.

I'm a little confused. The vet thinks she may have metastatic cancer
based on a rectal exam? I think if it were my dog I'd take a wait and
see approach to this rather than doing extensive testing. If the dog
has metastatic cancer, there isn't anything that can be done anyway,
and if that's what's going on you'll know soon enough.

Yup, some very unusual granualar lumps. Tests were done and in a week or
so, we should have results. The test was only 80$ and mostly to put me at
ease. The vet already knows we aren't the 'OHMYGHODSAVEMYPETNOMATTERWHAT'
sort to put her through pain.

I was just suprised and sad at the list. It doesn't change my mind though.
She's in her final home and happy to chase Cash when she feels like running,
or just nuzzle him and Daisy-chan when sleepy or like last snow, make
tunnels then pop up to startle Cash (grin).

Age estimation, revised. She says, 'hard to tell with older dogs as they
age as they will, but I'd be suprised if she was younger than 12 and 14 is
more likely'. For those not aware of beagles, 14 is like Sammy at 17.

Well, 14 is pretty old for most breeds except toys, and I don't know
that Beagles age any faster than other breeds their size. It's not
unheard of for a Siberian to hit 15 or even 16, but 14 is still pretty
old for them. 17 is *very* old for any breeds except toys.

The good news, she doesn't have hip displasia (sp?) but probably
arthritis.

Nothing you could do about dysplasia at this point anyway, and no
surprise that she'd have arthritis at her age.

Yup.

Like Sammy, Mabel Anne had a remaining time of being a number on a cage or
the best we can provide for as long as her quality of life remains
enjoyable.

Yes. And getting her physical issues taken care of will go a long way
to improving her quality of life.

Will do what we can. I may not do all 1,500$ of teeth though if they
estimate she has only a few months. In my own mind, she'd just spend them
tender mouthed when she isnt now bothered and that is a negative. I suspect
one may need to go though.

It's ok, her lab results come back before her dental is due. We will base
how far to go, on her comfort and recovery time.

This I might add is *not* a cost issue as she was not selling anything or
getting any 'kickback'. It was more like recommending an older human take
a
few extra suppliments because they don't absorb things as well once very
elderly. Mostly the vet said 'make the grind heavy on joints as she needs
that but you knew it'. Chicken necks optimal for our current 'mix and
match' for her. Based on this, those with elder dogs *may* want to up
that
portion of chicken necks.

And here I disagree with your vet. If feeding ground, backs vs. necks
doesn't matter much - backs have a higher bone content. But whole
chicken necks are much too small for most breeds (including Beagles).
In terms of joint health from diet alone, beef trachea and gullet are
about the best source of chondroitin, and chicken feet are a great
source of glucosamine. I don't know how easy those things are to find
- my supplier has trachea and gullet (basically the esophagus, I
think) at $.79/pound and chicken feet at $1.09. I have no clue in the
world why chicken feet would cost more than chicken backs. She gave
me a small back of chicken feet last week, most likely in the hope
that my dogs would become addicted, heh.

Dunno! It was based on local stuff and prices and being ground. Cant find
'gullet' here. Feet easy though!

Wish Mabel Anne and us luck.

Most definitely, good luck to you all.

Meantime, she's at home going to TOWN on a new bone she stole from Cash!

Sounds like her teeth and jaws aren't in too bad a shape then, which
is good.

Hehe yeah. Teeth may look bad but there is no evidence they bother her.

"buglady" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

She failed the lyme disease test. The vet says with no way to know if
she's been treated, best to treat again. I agree.

,,,,,,,,,I'd check Tick list for specific info on this issue. I don't know
if they've decided yet about treating a positive titer with no symptoms.
Also I think it depends on what test they used.:
http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/....exe?A0=TICK-L

Regardless, we had it done.

Thank you for the refernces though!

She gets a
booster in 3 weeks.

,,,,,,,,,,,of what? This isn't a time to vx this dog, She probably
wouldn't respond anyway,

No, thats how this vaccine works.

There is no way to know if it was a recent infection (no symptoms yet) or an
older treated one. I may be silly in many cases, but with all her other
issues, this one was an easy call. She has to get rabies shot in July then
goes on a 3 year schedule. Again, no records or she'd be on a 3 year now
for that.

Her chip shows fine and her rabies shots can be validated. State law
requires a rabies booster again second year then we shift to longer
interums. Due to lack on info on her background, she gets one again in
July 2011.
.........if this dog isn't in better shape by then, I'd get the vet to
document it and at least put it off until the end of the year.

Hard to do when a dog shows no reaction other than a slightly warm nose for
a few hours after shots. It didnt even put her off her feed. I swrear, the
shots made her hungry!

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 21:13:25 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

"buglady" wrote
"cshenk" wrote

She failed the lyme disease test. The vet says with no way to know if
she's been treated, best to treat again. I agree.

,,,,,,,,,I'd check Tick list for specific info on this issue. I don't know
if they've decided yet about treating a positive titer with no symptoms.
Also I think it depends on what test they used.:
http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/....exe?A0=TICK-L

Regardless, we had it done.

Thank you for the refernces though!

She gets a
booster in 3 weeks.

,,,,,,,,,,,of what? This isn't a time to vx this dog, She probably
wouldn't respond anyway,

No, thats how this vaccine works.

Your vet treated a positive Lyme titer by giving a Lyme vaccine?

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 21:04:48 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

That's unfortunate about the Lyme test. When you say she gets a
booster in 3 weeks, what do you mean?

It comes in 1 shot, then a booster 3 weeks later. It was explained *very
carefully* that they can not tell if she'd ever been treated and can't tell
if it is a recent infection or one already treated. Apparently once they
have it, they are always going to test positive so only vet records of
treatment can be used. Since she's a rescue with only July 2010 records
known, this one they do not know. We only know the rescue place didnt treat
but I do not know if it was tested for. It is not very common in my area
though vets commonly will 'suggest' vaccination as it isnt unknown. Cash
was vaccinated just after we got him. (No, this one doesnt travel from pet
to pet).

I'm really confused. Treatment for Lyme is antibiotics. What shots
are you talking about?

Yup. Vet was really happy. She's also got really GOOD heart sounds which
worried me as Cash doesn't so vet said 'probably caught early before any
damage other than treatment weight loss'.

We've treated rescues with severe heartworm infections that had no
heart damage. Mukluk, who had an infestation severe enough to make
him barrel-chested for life, was treated when he was found around age
5 or 6 and lived to about 15 or 16. Even the treatment didn't slow
him down.

Her chip shows fine and her rabies shots can be validated. State law
requires a rabies booster again second year then we shift to longer
interums. Due to lack on info on her background, she gets one again in
July
2011.

Too bad they won't let her go on a 3-year schedule at her age.

Sadly, this state doesnt allow until after 1st treatment then booster at one
year without evidence of issues. Mabel shows no issues of any reactions to
any of the shots she got (verbally verified with vet and foster before she
came to us, and by us after 24 hours of the ones she had to have again).

Well, problems from vaccinations can show up long after 24 hours
later. I'm not anti-vaccination, but I'm certainly against over
vaccination, which I believe can contribute to autoimmune problems in
dogs. And any vet should know that you don't vaccinate a dog that's
not healthy.

True. There's no sign she's ever had a dental but there's no way to know
she hasn't. What we can tell is she has no discomfort eating or chewing
bones. THere may be only 1 tooth that has to go to keep her in comfort if
the metastatic cancer test comes back positive.

Exactly what test did they do that shows that a dog has metastatic
cancer?

Will do what we can. I may not do all 1,500$ of teeth though if they
estimate she has only a few months.

$1,500??? For a dental and how many extractions?

"cshenk" wrote in message
news
She failed the lyme disease test. The vet says with no way to know if
she's been treated, best to treat again. I agree.

,,,,,,,,,I'd check Tick list for specific info on this issue. I don't
know if they've decided yet about treating a positive titer with no
symptoms. Also I think it depends on what test they used.:
http://apple.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/....exe?A0=TICK-L

Regardless, we had it done.

.................If what the vet did was vaccinate with Lyme vax, DON'T DO
IT AGAIN! I have to believe you're talking about a vaccine, for if you were
actually TREATING the disease it would be with dozy, and your dog would be
getting it every day.

She gets a
booster in 3 weeks.

,,,,,,,,,,,of what? This isn't a time to vx this dog, She probably
wouldn't respond anyway,

No, thats how this vaccine works.

...............No it is not! A dog with a trashed immune system cannot
respond fully to a vaccination. That's why it says in Kirk's Vet Therapy to
never vaccinate sick animals. And if the dog actually HAS Lyme disease,
vaccinating is pointless and possibly injurious.

There is no way to know if it was a recent infection (no symptoms yet) or
an older treated one.

.....................Your vet is sorely out of date! Please read these pages
below from IDEXX plus this one
http://sites.google.com/site/blackgsd/lymedisease

and print it off for him.
This Snap (3Dx or 4Dx) test ***can*** distinguish between vaccinated dogs
and dogs with Lyme disease antibodies. IF it is postive the next step is to
do the C6 Quantitative test to determine if the infection is current.

http://www.idexx.com/view/xhtml/en_u...e/snap/4dx.jsf
"The SNAP 4Dx Test identifies an antibody that is produced ***only as a
result of a B. burgdorferi infection ***(unlike IFA, which isn't specific
for B. burgdorferi infection). The difference is the unique, revolutionary
C6 ELISA technology.

C6 identifies infection
The SNAP 4Dx Test is based on the detection of antibody to a highly
specific, conserved, immunodominant region of VIsE, a surface antigen,
called C6. Antibody concentrations are believed to have a high correlation
to the presence of viable spirochetes.2"

Also for info on C6Quant test:

http://tinyurl.com/33m33r2

If the dog is positive on the C6 go back to the blackgsd pages above and
read about antibiotics. The dose is 2X as high as most vets use. This info
comes from VETS at the Tick-L. You can also read this:

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Lyme.htm

buglady Take out the dog before replying

"sighthounds & siberians" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

That's unfortunate about the Lyme test. When you say she gets a
booster in 3 weeks, what do you mean?

It comes in 1 shot, then a booster 3 weeks later. It was explained *very
carefully* that they can not tell if she'd ever been treated and can't
tell
if it is a recent infection or one already treated. Apparently once they
have it, they are always going to test positive so only vet records of
treatment can be used. Since she's a rescue with only July 2010 records
known, this one they do not know. We only know the rescue place didnt
treat
but I do not know if it was tested for. It is not very common in my area
though vets commonly will 'suggest' vaccination as it isnt unknown. Cash
was vaccinated just after we got him. (No, this one doesnt travel from
pet
to pet).

I'm really confused. Treatment for Lyme is antibiotics. What shots
are you talking about?

She's getting something that sounded from I gathered was treatment. I have
not googled it yet to know more. I planned to later tonight but have not
yet. If it's antibiotics, then that is what she got. Please forgive me but
she has so *many* issues it became a blurr after a bit. I do however trust
these folks. They do not 'over medicate' and we were there 2.5 HOURS with
the vet in the room the majority of the time. The lyme was actually a
pretty minor point in it all.

Yup. Vet was really happy. She's also got really GOOD heart sounds which
worried me as Cash doesn't so vet said 'probably caught early before any
damage other than treatment weight loss'.

We've treated rescues with severe heartworm infections that had no
heart damage. Mukluk, who had an infestation severe enough to make
him barrel-chested for life, was treated when he was found around age
5 or 6 and lived to about 15 or 16. Even the treatment didn't slow
him down.

Some do well. Some not so. Mabel took this one like a trooper ;-) and she's
probably regained most of the lost weight that is proper for her with us in
the last 6 weeks. Cash had a much harder time, but he probably had a worse
infestation or a longer one. Mabel just lost some weight but was already
perking up just about as she came here. I don't think we had anything to do
with that directly but it seemed more 'just as they normally start to perk
up after treatment for heartworms'.

Her chip shows fine and her rabies shots can be validated. State law
requires a rabies booster again second year then we shift to longer
interums. Due to lack on info on her background, she gets one again in
July
2011.

Too bad they won't let her go on a 3-year schedule at her age.

Sadly, this state doesnt allow until after 1st treatment then booster at
one
year without evidence of issues. Mabel shows no issues of any reactions
to
any of the shots she got (verbally verified with vet and foster before she
came to us, and by us after 24 hours of the ones she had to have again).

Well, problems from vaccinations can show up long after 24 hours
later. I'm not anti-vaccination, but I'm certainly against over
vaccination, which I believe can contribute to autoimmune problems in
dogs. And any vet should know that you don't vaccinate a dog that's
not healthy.

She's not got any issues at all though that we can tell with anything given.
Her nose was a little warm (but still wet'ish) that evening and fine by
morning. No issues with pooping at all. Normal hunger and no vomiting.
They accepted the previous trackable rabies shot over the phone and she's
set for July 2011 for now for next one then, sad grin, if still around next
seems to be 2014.

If I track well on so *many* things discusssed over that long vet trip, if
there was even more than a warm nose, Mabel can go on the 'do not vaccinate
list' but it requires some level of evidence of issues. She looks
*incredibly healthy* especially for her possible 14yo age. Old yes, but not
sick or in pain or wasting away.

True. There's no sign she's ever had a dental but there's no way to know
she hasn't. What we can tell is she has no discomfort eating or chewing
bones. THere may be only 1 tooth that has to go to keep her in comfort if
the metastatic cancer test comes back positive.

Exactly what test did they do that shows that a dog has metastatic
cancer?

Umm Jo, they ran a test that has to go off to the lab. I should hear by end
of week or early next week. I'm not a vet or a Doctor. It just gives and
indicator better than the blood test they were able to do right there of
cancer.

Will do what we can. I may not do all 1,500$ of teeth though if they
estimate she has only a few months.

$1,500??? For a dental and how many extractions?

3 back teeth. I suspect no matter what, one of them may have to go. She's
got no pain at all though on eating and we'll have all 3 handled unless her
lab tests show she has at best 3 months (probably more tests required if
this one comes back as an 'oh no' to determine that).

Tell me Jo, if you had a dog 3 years estimated past the normal geriatric for
the type with (still waiting to hear for sure) an estimated few months left,
would you pull 3 teeth if they were causing them no pain? Would you not
look at it as just destruction of what fun they have left before they need
that final needle of blessing as the pain sets in?

I'm waiting for results then will decide what gives her best quality of life
based on them.

On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 19:03:22 -0500, "cshenk" wrote:

I'm really confused. Treatment for Lyme is antibiotics. What shots
are you talking about?

She's getting something that sounded from I gathered was treatment. I have
not googled it yet to know more. I planned to later tonight but have not
yet. If it's antibiotics, then that is what she got.

Not if she got a shot. The treatment for Lyme is doxycycline. It is
not given via a shot with a 'booster' later. That is not the way any
antibiotics are given.

Please forgive me but
she has so *many* issues it became a blurr after a bit.

Believe me, I've seen rescue dogs with more issues than Mabel. I'm
not trying to be critical here, but it behooves human caregivers to
know exactly what medications are given for exactly what conditions.

Exactly what test did they do that shows that a dog has metastatic
cancer?

Umm Jo, they ran a test that has to go off to the lab. I should hear by end
of week or early next week. I'm not a vet or a Doctor. It just gives and
indicator better than the blood test they were able to do right there of
cancer.

I'm not Jo. I'm not a vet or a doctor, either, but I make it my
business to know - and approve - what tests are done. I'm a pretty
knowledgeable dog owner, and I'm not aware of any lab test that
confirms metastatic cancer.

Will do what we can. I may not do all 1,500$ of teeth though if they
estimate she has only a few months.

$1,500??? For a dental and how many extractions?

3 back teeth.

Well, that's just an absolutely outrageous price. It's great that you
trust these vets, but I think you're being taken.

Tell me Jo, if you had a dog 3 years estimated past the normal geriatric for
the type with (still waiting to hear for sure) an estimated few months left,
would you pull 3 teeth if they were causing them no pain? Would you not
look at it as just destruction of what fun they have left before they need
that final needle of blessing as the pain sets in?

I'm still not Jo. What I would do in a situation like Mabel's would
depend on my assessment of the dog. It's not possible for a human to
say that a dog is not in pain in most situations, because dogs hide
pain and can be incredibly stoic. Most times, when dogs have teeth
that are inflamed or infected, the teeth are causing pain, just like
yours would under those circumstances, even if the dog isn't showing
pain symptoms.

One thing I do know, though, is that if a vet wanted to treat a
positive Lyme titer with a Lyme vaccine, and/or if a vet quoted me a
price of $1,500 for a dental with 3 extractions, I would run, very
fast, in the other direction.