As an adjunct to a discussion elsewhere about the mental stability and moral
judgment of the person who brutally euthanized 100 sled dogs, the famous
Milgram Experiments were cited. The results were disturbing, as they
consistently showed that about 2/3 of all subjects would follow orders to
administer painful shocks to another human subject in the context of
training or learning.

This was simulated, so the subject administering the shocks did not see the
recipient, and only heard pre-recorded sounds of agony. But even more
disturbing was the finding that, in the case of actual shocks being applied
to a live puppy, over half the men and 100% of the women completed the
experiment by giving the highest level of shock without refusing to obey the
commands of the researcher.

This is a sad observation of the innate cruelty and lack of moral and
ethical standards that apparently pervades the human race. Also significant
is the finding that most people from "primitive" societies such as
Aborigines refused to continue the experiment beyond the lower levels, while
those from so-called "civilized" societies had a much higher percentage of
obedience to authority without the empathy or ethical substance to refuse to
commit such acts of cruelty.

See: http://www.stanleymilgram.com/pdf/obedience.pdf

and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

We can and should learn much from our dogs to help us live cooperatively and
peacefully. Perhaps they were destined to bond with us and teach us about
their ways of promoting unity and order in their packs. Without such
sustainable structure and mutual trust and respect, I believe our human
society is doomed to a tumultuous and agonizing failure.

What do you think?

What would you do?

Paul and Muttley

On Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:12:53 -0500, P E Schoen wrote:

As an adjunct to a discussion elsewhere about the mental stability and
moral judgment of the person who brutally euthanized 100 sled dogs, the
famous Milgram Experiments were cited. The results were disturbing, as
they consistently showed that about 2/3 of all subjects would follow
orders to administer painful shocks to another human subject in the
context of training or learning.

This was simulated, so the subject administering the shocks did not see
the recipient, and only heard pre-recorded sounds of agony. But even
more disturbing was the finding that, in the case of actual shocks being
applied to a live puppy, over half the men and 100% of the women
completed the experiment by giving the highest level of shock without
refusing to obey the commands of the researcher.

This is a sad observation of the innate cruelty and lack of moral and
ethical standards that apparently pervades the human race. Also
significant is the finding that most people from "primitive" societies
such as Aborigines refused to continue the experiment beyond the lower
levels, while those from so-called "civilized" societies had a much
higher percentage of obedience to authority without the empathy or
ethical substance to refuse to commit such acts of cruelty.

See: http://www.stanleymilgram.com/pdf/obedience.pdf

and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

We can and should learn much from our dogs to help us live cooperatively
and peacefully.
Perhaps they were destined to bond with us and teach us
about their ways of promoting unity and order in their packs. Without
such sustainable structure and mutual trust and respect, I believe our
human society is doomed to a tumultuous and agonizing failure.


What do you think?


the time is coming to an end, see Apocalypse

unfortunately too often we must do as authority wishes or they compel us,
discussion on this topic in this group is too much OT, see dogman's
authority, so lets talk dogs

What would you do?

I have no authorities but Him above, for this reason I live in strange to
me culture and still miss my homeland after circa 30 years as much as
first day I came here in addition to it I'm starting to suffer for lack
of freedom/liberty which I have sought. There is no place to go now,
demoNcracy is everywhere.

dogs ? mine has a choice and I do whatever I can to train my to give him
the choice, no compulsion, compulsion could make my dog super obedient
but not happy, if he becomes aggressive and my management will fail I'll
take no risk to give him in "dogman's" hand but put him asleep


Paul and Muttley

you got my answer, your turn now
--
"Salesman welcome,dog food is expensive."

"sonofdog" wrote in message ...

the time is coming to an end, see Apocalypse

I'm not a conventionally religious person, so I don't really believe in the
biblical description of the "end of days". But I do think we as a species
have ravaged the earth and depleted resources in a mad race for personal
gain without taking responsibility for the consequences. So we may well
engage in a destructive global "extinction burst" as the paradigm of
exponential growth hits the inevitable wall of diminishing resources.
Without cooperation, we are doomed. And if a significant number of people
are like Dogman, who smugly proclaims his preference for conspicuous
consumption, there will soon come a time of dire consequences.

unfortunately too often we must do as authority wishes or they
compel us, discussion on this topic in this group is too much
OT, see dogman's authority, so lets talk dogs

Most of the authority we encounter in free countries leaves us many choices,
and does not compel us to do that which is immoral or unethical. But the
articles I cited provide some interesting insight into the relative
effectiveness of various modes of influencing behavior, which I think also
applies to dogs and their training.

What would you do?

I have no authorities but Him above, for this reason I live
in strange to me culture and still miss my homeland after
circa 30 years as much as first day I came here in addition
to it I'm starting to suffer for lack of freedom/liberty which
I have sought. There is no place to go now,
demoNcracy is everywhere.

There is no perfect political system, but here in the US we at least have a
government theoretically of, by, and for the people. But many people do not
take their responsibilities seriously, and seek handouts from the government
rather than contributing. And many small-minded people have allowed laws to
be enacted that do nothing but interfere with individual freedom, and
contribute to the immense wealth and power of criminals.

dogs ? mine has a choice and I do whatever I can to train
my to give him the choice, no compulsion, compulsion could
make my dog super obedient but not happy, if he becomes
aggressive and my management will fail I'll take no risk to
give him in "dogman's" hand but put him asleep

you got my answer, your turn now

I rarely compel Muttley to do (or not do) anything, at least not with force
or in an angry manner. I like to give him a choice and use positive
reinforcement, and I think he has fun when I train him for certain behaviors
as I have shown in my videos.

Paul and Muttley

On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:07:17 -0500, P E Schoen wrote:

the time is coming to an end, see Apocalypse

I'm not a conventionally religious person, so I don't really believe in
the biblical description of the "end of days". But I do think we as a
species

since you say "we as a species" we differ so much that any further
discussion on this subject will be futile, so I drop it

however you failed to answer your own question:

What would you do?

(in other words: do you know yourself ?)

"andal" wrote in message ...

since you say "we as a species" we differ so much that
any further discussion on this subject will be futile, so I
drop it

I won't press the issue, but AFAIK humans are a species whether or not a
Divine Creator was involved. But that becomes definitely off-topic, unless
the discussion is about whether dogs have souls, or if there are dogs in
heaven, and such.

however you failed to answer your own question:

What would you do?

(in other words: do you know yourself ?)

Now that I know the details of the experiment, I would probably refuse to
continue past a fairly low level of shock, even though I knew that it was
not real, because that is what I think I would have done anyway. In the case
of the live puppy, however, I am quite sure that I would stop very quickly
when I saw or heard evidence of a disturbing level of pain.

However, there is also the element of how convincing the researcher might be
in qualifying the parameters of the test. If I were convinced that the shock
was actually therapeutic, for instance, and some discomfort and pain were
necessary to cure the puppy of a neurological disorder that would otherwise
be fatal, then I might continue further.

If I were promised a monetary reward, I might balance the amount of the
reward, and how much good I might be able to do with it, against the
temporary and non-fatal series of shocks. But, also, being an electronics
engineer, I know some of the physiological (and psychological) effects of
electricity through muscle, skin, and nerve tissue, so that would also be a
factor. If the amount were, say, a million dollars, I would consider that I
could build a rescue facility that could save a thousand dogs, and the
discomfort or even loss of life of one puppy might justify continuation. But
a hundred dollars, or even a thousand dollars, probably not. I suppose
almost everyone has their price.

Upon threat of severe punishment, torture, or death for non-compliance, I
would probably continue, although I might vow to do something later in
retaliation. Choose life for oneself so as to be able to correct this wrong
at some point, rather than be a martyr. I would hope I would never be in
such a position.

Probably no one knows themselves well enough to say with certainty what they
would do in a situation like this. I believe that I have a strong sense of
morality and what is right when it comes to inflicting pain on a sentient
creature. And, unlike many in some versions of the experiment, I don't think
I would be much influenced by peer pressure, which is often given as the
reason for kids acting out of character when they are in gangs. I tend to be
independent and thoughtful rather than conform to popular belief and
behavior.

Paul and Muttley

On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:07:17 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

And if a significant number of people
are like Dogman, who smugly proclaims his preference for conspicuous
consumption, there will soon come a time of dire consequences.

Doofuses like you have been forecasting these "dire consequences" for
hundreds, if not thousands, of years. And what you call "conspicuous
consumption," I call capitalism at work.

I don't have low mileage vehicles to flaunt my wealth (the definition
of conspicuous consumption), I have them because I need them. Try
towing a custom-built six-horse trailer with a Prius sometime, and let
me know how that works out for you.

My "conspicuous consumption" provides jobs for up to 25 people (we're
a 24/7/365 operation), at times, and their spending provides fuel for
the economy. How many jobs do you provide, Watermelon Man?

Only a doofus (or drunkard) could contract frost-bite in his own home.

What a freakin' maroon.

--
Dogman

On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 00:07:17 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

[...]
I'm not a conventionally religious person

I'm shocked.

--
Dogman

"Dogman" wrote in message
...

I'm shocked.

Stuck your tongue in the light socket again, eh?

Speaking of shock, why do you continue to post OT comments in a serious
thread? Are you so needy (or so stupid) that you cannot either add some
relevant content, or withhold from posting anything? Your behavior continues
to be childish and disruptive, and not at all according to your own pleas
for having other people post to appropriate dog-related newsgroups. "Boing"
goes the irony meter once again. You can't practice what you preach, can
you? Your hypocrisy is once again exposed for all the world to see.

Paul and Muttley

On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:51:51 -0500, "P E Schoen"
wrote:

"Dogman" wrote in message
.. .

I'm shocked.

Stuck your tongue in the light socket again, eh?

Speaking of shock, why do you continue to post OT comments in a serious
thread?

This thread has ZERO to do with dog behavior. You just brought dogs
into it so that you could take cheap shots at me. You don't think you
have anyone fooled, do you? Really?

So if you can create silly threads that have ZERO to do with dog
behavior, I can take cheap shots at you, too.

What a maroon.


--
Dogman

On 2/13/2011 1:05 PM, Dogman wrote:

I don't have low mileage vehicles to flaunt my wealth (the definition
of conspicuous consumption), I have them because I need them. Try
towing a custom-built six-horse trailer with a Prius sometime, and let
me know how that works out for you.

A very old pickup truck would pull that same trailer just fine. You have
no argument there.

Of course you never do and have to resort to name calling and insults.
Have you ever considered getting a more meaningful hobby?