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#1
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
My beautiful border collie bitch is coming up to her 7th birthday.
She's never had pups. She's in fine fettle, but is she too old to have her first litter? Mary |
#2
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
This is one of those things that you need to discuss with your dog's
vet. You may see her as in fine fettle.... but that doesn't mean that she really is. I'd rather compare her to a 40 or 45 year old woman having a first baby. It can be done.... but the risks may be higher than you want to take; canine obstetrics are much more dangerous to the bitch than to a human mother. Puppy mortality is also Much higher than for humans, regardless of the mother's health and age. Here are some things to consider.... Is she a superior working herding dog? Is she a show champion or has she earned at least placements in show classes, and perhaps one or more Challenge Certificate? Has she had her eyes evaluated by a vet ophthalmologist (eye doc), and did she get a normal rating? Does she have titles in obedience, fly-ball, and/or agility? If she doesn't get a "Yes" on a minimum of four of these questions, she may be a lovely dog for YOU, but it doesn't mean that she will produce superior, typical-for-breed and healthy puppies. She might not even be a good mum. You may not be able to find good homes for all.... or any.... of her puppies. Do you even have any experience with placing puppies in appropriate homes? Don't plan on "breaking even" financially...... you won't. How much can you afford to lose? Oh..... and have you found a male that is also a superior quality dog to mate to her? Just another Border Collie is not enough.... And.... if you had to ask here, you have great gaping holes in your knowledge about dogs, the breed, and about breeding, which places you at a distinct disadvantage from the start. Breeding has it's wonderful moments.... and some of the biggest heartbreaks you can imagine. But now is the time, if you Really want to be a breeder, to start studying, and to get to know people who work, train, trial, and show Border Collies, for the purpose of learning as much as possible.... then get a nice bitch of the Best quality you can find and go from there while she is still a young adult, about 2 years of age..... not a "maiden bitch" at 7 years. Jo Wolf Martinez, Georgia |
#3
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
On Mar 30, 10:19 pm, (Jo Wolf) wrote:
(...) canine obstetrics are much more dangerous to the bitch than to a human mother Hi Jo and thanks for this reply. I'd be grateful for some details on the above. Maternal death rates for humans in the US are between 1 and 2 per 10,000 (down from 8 in 1950, but currently rising - the Californian figure has trebled in a decade); 2.9 for women over 35, and 0.5 for women under 20. The overall figure for our species is 43. What are the figures for dogs? And how do they differ for a 7-year-old as compared with, say, a 3-year-old? Thanks again! Mary |
#4
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
On Mar 30, 10:19*pm, (Jo Wolf) wrote:
I'd rather compare her to a 40 or 45 year old woman having a first baby. Except there is no canine menopause; bitches remain fertile throughout their lives. But I'd be interested to learn details of any increased health risks when a border collie has puppies at 7. I am not concerned with show or any other competitive considerations. Mary |
#5
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
Some of the risk to bitches in whelp and during and after whelping comes
from the fact that labor and delivery usually involve vets only when a c-section is required. The serious hobby breeder today (in the US, anyhow, producing show and working dogs) has access to seminars by reproduction (OB-GYN) and neonatal specialty vets. Such seminars are rarely announced to the general public; few, if any of whom would pay the money to attend. These seminars add knowledge to the tough practical experience of years, even decades, of attending to bitches while whelping and the neonatal puppies. Other educational programs are available from highly admired and experienced breeders with strong records of raising healthy, mentally and physically outstanding pups with neurological stimulation routines.... although these are also available in magazine articles and books, and on the web. For the most part, however, it is the bitch's owner, with minimal, if any, prior experience, who attends delivery and tends to mom and pups. This is where most problems begin. We have NO idea of the maternal mortality rate. It's probably not too high, or we wouldn't have the excess numbers of dogs being put to death in shelters around the world. When it's your own beloved bitch who dies because you handled something incorrectly, didn't read a sign for a complication, couldn't get her to a vet soon enough for an assisted delivery of a stuck pup or an emergency c-section..... it's a very high death rate. Certainly the c-section rate is nothing like that for women in the US.... and the rest of the world.... but by the time the beginning owner recognizes the need and can get to the vet.... it can be too late. The death rate of puppies is unknown.... but in a litter of 7 puppies from a well cared for purebred bitch in a show/working breeder's hands, one survey showed an average of 2 pups lost before age of sale (at that time about 7-8 weeks of age). This included stillborns, pups eaten by the mother (usually a first time mother), pups fatally injured by the bitch in the process of chewing through the umbilical cord, pups refused by the mother, birth defects (visible or not), pups smothered under the mother in the whelping box, and other causes. It is common for a bitch, shown by early x-ray or ultrasound exam to be carrying a given number of pups to deliver fewer than visible; some fetuses died and were reabsorbed. Sometimes a mummified puppy is born. In breeds with average litter sizes of multiple pups, a singleton pup or just two will be extremely large and may not pass through the birth canal. When this is known, c-section can be planned. Very large round heads of pups of breeds such as Bulldogs prevent normal birth. X-ray or sonagram late in pregnancy can give a more accurate picture of numbers and of head/total size to allow for planned c-section. And then there is Murphy's Law and the old adage about expecting the unexpected. Uterine inertia, where the uterus just stops pushing the pups out efficiently or effectively.... for instance. As the mother is not being cloned, and the pups not raised entirely identically to the mum, the puppies will not be "the same" as she is. Not just physically, but in personality, temperament, behavior. What the breeder doesn't know about the other dogs in the bitch's pedigree (even mixes have pedigrees, by definition), and the sire's pedigree can come back to haunt the puppies. And you can't trust earlier breeders in that pedigree to be entirely honest..... or to know!..... about physical and mental issues with other puppies in all of those litters. It's a gamble. Placing pupies is an art, rather than a science. Which homes available are really suitable for the breed? The individual puppy? How does the breeder identify the pup who wants to rule the world? Is that puppy simply mellow or does it have the type of shyness that leads to a terrified biter? Are the potential buyers honest about their home and lifestyle? Will they keep the dog secured or let it run loose in the neighborhood? Will they train it properly to live a well-behaved life or not? Can they afford basic preventive health care, and will they do it? What if, because of current economics, no one wants your puppies? What if one or more pups ends up in the wrong home and you learn that the owner wants to get rid of it; if you are responsible, you will take it back at any time, for any reason. How often do dogs of the breed end up in animal welfare/rescue organizations? This is a strong indicator of how many suitable homes are out there. True, bitches do not have a menopause. But those eggs get more and more "stale" by age. There's a reason that commercial breeders ("puppymills", "puppy farms") euthanize or dump into animal welfare bitches older than 4-5 years of age; the litters get smaller, they may see normal litter size, but more defects or neonatal deaths. In their case, the bitch is no longer a profit center. For the serious hobby breeder, who only breeds a bitch annually or every two years, retirement usually comes before the age of 7..... at 5-6 years. The retired bitch stays in the breeder's home or is sold to a home that wants a settled, mature dog. More and more, I am hearing that the reproductive speciaists are suggesting no more than 2-3 litters per bitch, and as many breeders do not breed a bitch before two years of age, alternating years for breeding put the bitch at about 6 years for her last litter, at 4 years for annual breeding of 3 litters. This all is why I said to discuss this with your vet. Breeding a dog is not to get a carbon copy of mom or dad. It's Only to produce the healthiest, most typical dogs of a breed. Jo Wolf Martinez, Georgia |
#6
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
On Mar 31, 6:35*pm, (Jo Wolf) wrote:
(snip) Thanks for the lecture, Jo, but there's nothing in your 1000-word post about any increased risks when a bitch gets pregnant at 7 rather than 3, so should I conclude that you don't know? Not sure why you're posting to this thread! Mary |
#7
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
"Mary Crewkerne" wrote
(Jo Wolf) wrote: (snip) Thanks for the lecture, Jo, but there's nothing in your 1000-word post about any increased risks when a bitch gets pregnant at 7 rather than 3, so should I conclude that you don't know? Not sure why you're posting to this thread! Mary, there was a great deal relevant but she doesnt have your whole history or what you are trying to do. Lets bring it down to basics. It's not as safe for the dog to be bred at age 7 as at age 3. Complication chances increase, just like with older human women. Chances of pup death increase with older bitches as well. It may work, but it's not a money maker normally. You do not indicate yours has show dog levels so your aim must be other. Perhaps a particularily effective working dog and a hope that at least some of the pups will prove as good? Jo addresses that as well. 'Aunti Mabel' who is 14 came to us just a few months ago. She was spayed while pregnant and vets checks showed she was used as a breeder most likely all her life and a hunter when presumably not too heavy with pups. Her health has suffered much from too many especially late in life. So, 'can you breed a 7 year old', yes it's possible. Do you want to? Thats the question. |
#8
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
On Mar 31, 11:17*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"Mary Crewkerne" wrote (Jo Wolf) wrote: (snip) Thanks for the lecture, Jo, but there's nothing in your 1000-word post about any increased risks when a bitch gets pregnant at 7 rather than 3, so should I conclude that you don't know? Not sure why you're posting to this thread! Lets bring it down to basics. Yes - I refer to the thread title! :-) *It's not as safe for the dog to be bred at age 7 as at age 3. Complication chances increase, Any details? just like with older human women. This analogy is false; different species - no menopause; might as well say that a 7-year-old border collie is only around halfway through her fertile period, cf a 30-year-old woman. It may work, but it's not a money maker normally. I'm not interested in money. So, 'can you breed a 7 year old', yes it's possible. Nothing like stating the obvious! Do you want to? *That's the question. It's not the question. I clearly want to. I was asking about any increased risks to my dog's health. I suspect that if there was a big increase in risk, someone would have posted some details by now, and that responders are mainly thinking in terms of their own concerns of breeding dogs for purposes of competition and profit, which aren't my concerns at all. Mary |
#9
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
Mary, the fact that only two of us have replied to your question means
that no large number of people have even read it. Certainly no huge number of experienced, serious breeders of quality dogs. Dog-people have opinions which are frequently and strongly expressed. I have told you at least TWICE to talk with your VET. That's where the expertice in statistics is most likely to be. Although I believe the vet care available in the UK to be every bit as good or bad as it is in North America (specifically the US and Canada), totally on a par, I do not know the exact level of support you can expect from your own vet. That is critical when breeding the older bitch; the fact that such a bitch may be fertile does not make breeding her "safe" or advisable. I have been in the sport of dogs for over 30 years now, and I would NOT breed a seven year old maiden bitch. Nor would I breed a seven year old multiparous bitch. I am not a breeder, but I work with responsible breeders on a daily basis as the rescue coordinator for the US for my breed.... Border Terriers. I have assisted breeders of several breeds with whelping, with puppy care, and with evaluation of litters for placement choices. I have read articles and books about canine obstetrics and puppy care/raising of neonatal puppies. I also work with breeders of other breeds, primarily as students or instructors of canine sports; I teach obedience professionally, and have since the mid-1980s. So I didn't just walk in off the street. But I do not deal in statistics. Consider what the two of us have said and TALK TO YOUR VET! READ articles, READ books, listen to responsible breeders; there are many in the UK. Jo Wolf Martinez, Georgia |
#10
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is 7 too old for a border collie to have her first litter?
On Apr 1, 8:49*pm, (Jo Wolf) wrote:
I have been in the sport of dogs for over 30 years now, and I would NOT breed a seven year old maiden bitch. Yes but presumably you are involved with dogs for financial or competitive reasons, whereas I have no interest in either money or competition. You don't know the answer to my question. That's fine; there's nothing wrong with that! I'm quite sure that you know lots of other things to do with dogs. Mary |
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