In article ,
(Lynn K.) wrote:

http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/biosonic.html

What's interesting about this is that I had always felt that the only
source material for JH's manual was Kevin Behan, who is an idiot and
rehashes much of his favorite source material (William Campbell and
Desmond Morris). There's a lot of stuff in JH's manual that is
clearly from other people, like Campbell's timing of praise and David
the Dogman's technique that JH calls "The Family Pack Leadership
Exercise", but I always thought he got it 2nd hand from Behan because
he warps those techniques enough to make them ineffective. Kinda like
the old "telephone" game. Now I'm starting to think that JH might
have actually gotten off his lazy ass sometime over the past few years
and actually bothered to work backwards past Behan. Not that it made
him any smarter about dogs, though.

Lynn K.

Wow, Lynn. That's eerily familiar stuff....
Thanks for the link.
Chad

--
Looking for a pet? Adopt one! ** http://www.petfinder.com
Info for a healthy, happy dog? * http://www.dog-play.com

I still read the New York Times

Wow, Lynn. That's eerily familiar stuff....
Thanks for the link.
Chad
Seconded. I'm interested in Campbell because a woman here was for 20
years the only .... what? "non-correctional' trainer in town (before
clicker training came along) says Campbell was her mentor. And I've
heard the Bean Bag discussed, though by no one who's acturally tried it.
The link says Dog Wise has 3 Campbell books. Can anybody recommend
one?




















Just because humans are slow and can't smell or hear
very well doesn't mean they don't possess a primitive
type of intelligence.

Lynn K. wrote:
http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/biosonic.html

Of course the pioneer of this use of sound in training was John
Fisher. I'm wondering when Campbell started selling these
devices; there was certainly no information on his web site
several years ago when I was reading everything of his that
I could get my hands on.

More info on this use of sound in training:

http://www.napoleon.org.uk/training/nonreward.htm

Note "In operation, a fundamental premise of the discs is that
they should never be used to startle or threaten a dog, rather
they are used to communicate calmly but very definitely to the
dog that the behavior he is about to perform will fail to earn
him the reward he is expecting."

In short, that technique is referred to by behaviorists as
"negative punishment," which is defined as withdrawing something
that the dog wants.

There's a lot of stuff in JH's manual that is clearly from other
people, like Campbell's timing of praise and David the Dogman's
technique that JH calls "The Family Pack Leadership Exercise",
but I always thought he got it 2nd hand from Behan because
he warps those techniques enough to make them ineffective.

Second-hand from somewhere, anyway.

Kinda like the old "telephone" game.

Yes.

Dianne

When a short, low-volume ultra-sonic
sound occurs, an extremely powerful
response occurs. It's called the orienting
reflex.
BTW, has anybody used one of those ultra-sonic whistles? My dogs have
never paid them the slightest attention. Around here (somewhere) is a
tiny box containing one of those from England with a minute piece of
paper outlining a complete training program based on it.




















Just because humans are slow and can't smell or hear
very well doesn't mean they don't possess a primitive
type of intelligence.

(dianne marie schoenberg) wrote:
Note "In operation, a fundamental premise of the discs is that
they should never be used to startle or threaten a dog, rather
they are used to communicate calmly but very definitely to the
dog that the behavior he is about to perform will fail to earn
him the reward he is expecting."
In short, that technique is referred to by behaviorists as
"negative punishment," which is defined as withdrawing something
that the dog wants.

Technically, "negative punishment" is withdrawing something in order to
decrease a behavior. An example would be ignoring the dog when he jumps up on
you. You are withdrawing the reward (your attention) in order to decrease the
behavior (jumping up).

If you're withdrawing something in order to increase a behavior, it would be
"negative reinforcement." An example would be releasing the pressure on a
pinch collar when the dog performs the behavior.

When you use a sound distraction, you are adding something. So it's positive.
If you're trying to decrease a behavior, it's punishment. So the discs are
actually positive punishment.







PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.

Leah -OFF wrote:
(dianne marie schoenberg) wrote:
Note "In operation, a fundamental premise of the discs is that
they should never be used to startle or threaten a dog, rather
they are used to communicate calmly but very definitely to the
dog that the behavior he is about to perform will fail to earn
him the reward he is expecting."
In short, that technique is referred to by behaviorists as
"negative punishment," which is defined as withdrawing something
that the dog wants.

Technically, "negative punishment" is withdrawing something in order to
decrease a behavior. An example would be ignoring the dog when he jumps up on
you. You are withdrawing the reward (your attention) in order to decrease the
behavior (jumping up).

Correct. And I thought my response after I sent it. Technically,
I think that the beanbag/disks/whatever is a *conditioned*
negative punisher--a sign that something that is desired is
being withdrawn. This is similar to the use of a clicker,
which is a conditioned positive reinforcer.

JFWIW,

Dianne

(Chris Williams) wrote in message news:

The link says Dog Wise has 3 Campbell books. Can anybody recommend
one?

"Behavior Problems in Dogs", 1999. Read with a critical eye, though.
Some of Campbell's techniques just plain don't work for me (or others
I know who've tried them) and I disagree with his theories behind some
that do work.

Lynn K.

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

When you use a sound distraction, you are adding something. So it's
positive.
If you're trying to decrease a behavior, it's punishment. So the discs are
actually positive punishment.

Leah, you've come a long way, girl!

Kudos!

Thanks. But that knowledge comes straight from my PetsMart training course.
It really is a pretty good course. :}

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.