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  #1  
Old June 8th 12, 04:57 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Harry Bloomfield
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Posts: 13
Default Behaviour odd

Male border colley crossed newfoundland, coming up to 7 years old. We
have had him for coming upto 2.5years. He is big and very soft with all
humans, great with kids, but can be vicious with other dogs if they
snap at him, brilliant behaviour and impeccable manners.

Except- he seems in some way scared or unable to trust me a male.
Before we got him, he had got out and came back somewhat battle
scarred, cuts to his head, leg and needing stitches. The problem is he
will not precede me into a room or allow himself to be cornered by me,
as if he is scared I might hurt him. If he thinks he might be cornered,
he very forcefully pushes past, but will happily follow me if he has a
suitable reason. Where SWMBO goes, he follows two steps behind her. I
am generally ignored by him unless I offer him a ride in the car or a
walk. If SWMBO goes out he just sulks.

The other problem is he is just too obedient - difficult to explain,
but... Open the car door and ask him to get in he does, but if I happen
to say anything while he is jumping in he immediately turns around and
comes back out as if he has been scalded for doing something wrong.
There have been times when he has reacted so quickly that he has jumped
in and out three or four times, before I finally manage to close the
door behind him. To get him in in one, I have to be very careful not
say any thing and not to make any gestures.

Other than that, he can be taken in busy pedestrian shopping areas,
asked to lie down and can be absolutely trusted to stay put by himself
for ages without moving.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


  #2  
Old June 9th 12, 09:48 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Jo Wolf
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Posts: 479
Default Behaviour odd

So.... about his apparent preference for your signifcant other.... Who
feeds him his meals? Dogs tend to prefer the person who controls
dinner. You take over feeding him, and in a few weeks, you'll be higher
up his preference list.

I see that you are in the UK. I also know that neutering males is not
as common there as here in the US. Having him intact May have something
to do with his reaction to other male dogs. It's a self-protective
status thing. Often, if the male is neutered before mentally mature
(say, 3-4 years old), this will decrease this problem. Or not.....
Discuss with your vet.

The getting into the car thing just made me chuckle. He's easy to
distract just then.... Toss a small treat (of something he'd kill for)
into the car and get out of the way..... Unless there's a Need for you
to say something just then, keepa you mouf shut.

He's a cross of two very different breeds (personalities, training
profiles), and it's been my observation that quirks and foibles and
personalities can be a bit odd. With Border Terriers much more popular
in the UK than the US, my friends there have much less experience of the
"double-Border" cross of Border Collie and Border Terrier than we have
here in the US and Canada.... where they are produced in thankfully
small numbers for the sports of agility and flyball... Thankfully,
because a high percentage of this combination are nasty little buggers
who are far more interested in attaching their teeth to many more
varieties of flesh than either breed typically would be. Some of the
things that bug you may just be an odd blend of traits from one breed
becoming something else in your moose.

But I have known some BCs who are a bit skittish in some social
situations. On the positive side, your guy's quick mastery of obedient
behaviors comes from the BC side of the family, while the patience to
wait where told for extended periods while he's still so young could
well come from Either the more placid Newf or the natural herding
behaviors of the BC.

Frankly, I'd rather have a dog like yours that is distractable when I'm
trying to get it into the vehicle than my younger Border Terrier who is
in such a rush to go anywhere that as soon as I open that mini-van door,
he leaps for his crate, which is on Top of another crate.... and often
crashes..... because I haven't had time to open the crate door yet!
(Just rearranged things in the van to move him to the lower deck....)

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA

  #3  
Old June 9th 12, 10:04 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Jo Wolf
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Posts: 479
Default Behaviour odd - ADDED

OOPS.... I messed up on your guy's age..... only remembered how long
you've had him.

So.... you don't know what happened before you got him. His preferences
for the female of the human species may be related to his past, not that
a man abused him, but perhaps he lived in a home with no men. So he
still isn't as sure of you as he is of her.

No dog Likes to be cornered. Many will cower just so long before they
either bolt or bite. Think that through. Don't corner this dog.

You would be well served to get an evaluation of his reaction to other
dogs by a trainer or behaviorist. In the obedience classes I co-teach,
we maintain a firm rule that dogs may be no closer to each other than
four feet. One of our goals is that the dogs learn that the owners keep
them safe, AND that just because other dogs are present doesn't mean
that they should interact.... with the dogs ultimately learning that
when they are with their humans they are to focus on the humans. I
would expect any dog to react with teeth if threatened by another
dog.... It's called "survival of the species" (as well as self). And I
would thump the head of the owner who failed to take all actions to
prevent the dogs from being close enough to each other to offer violence
or need to react to protect self.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA

  #4  
Old June 9th 12, 01:25 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Harry Bloomfield
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Posts: 13
Default Behaviour odd

Jo Wolf formulated on Saturday :
So.... about his apparent preference for your signifcant other.... Who
feeds him his meals? Dogs tend to prefer the person who controls
dinner. You take over feeding him, and in a few weeks, you'll be higher
up his preference list.


She usually makes it up, but I always give him the dish. She normally
also keeps his water topped up. I am the only one to take him out for
walks and he is always happy to go. There is just the odd nervous
behaviour where I might be able to corner him as if I have ill treated
him, but it is not so bad now, as when he first came here.


I see that you are in the UK. I also know that neutering males is not
as common there as here in the US. Having him intact May have something
to do with his reaction to other male dogs. It's a self-protective
status thing. Often, if the male is neutered before mentally mature
(say, 3-4 years old), this will decrease this problem. Or not.....
Discuss with your vet.


He is intact. He doesn't differentiate between the gender of other
dogs, if they growl snap at him, he flys at them in an instant. If they
are friendly with him he is great.

Two or three dog walkers regularly pass the gate at the end of our
drive. One male much older border collie he is happy to let by without
much fuss, but he flys at the other dogs. A tap on the window by me
from inside the house and my pointing for him to go back up the drive
stops him immediately until the next passing.

I don't know the correct term, but - He wasn't the top male dog of his
litter and most of the litter lived together until a couple of years
ago. When a subsequent litter was had by his mother, he was very much
his mum's helper acting as their mum to give her a break - or so we
were told.


The getting into the car thing just made me chuckle. He's easy to
distract just then.... Toss a small treat (of something he'd kill for)
into the car and get out of the way..... Unless there's a Need for you
to say something just then, keepa you mouf shut.


It was just an example of how quickly he responds, how very sensitive
he is to the slightest instruction and how keen he is to do the correct
thing.


Some of the
things that bug you may just be an odd blend of traits from one breed
becoming something else in your moose.


Good point - His siblings all had their different peculiarities. We had
his sister from 6 weeks and she would give friendly nips to humans,
which some took to be not quite so friendly. She had to be put down at
three years of age due to serious health issues and he was offered as a
replacement.


But I have known some BCs who are a bit skittish in some social
situations. On the positive side, your guy's quick mastery of obedient
behaviors comes from the BC side of the family, while the patience to
wait where told for extended periods while he's still so young could
well come from Either the more placid Newf or the natural herding
behaviors of the BC.


We have not really taught or attempted to train him at all and I would
not know how to go about it really. He just does what he does and we
fall in with what he already does.


Frankly, I'd rather have a dog like yours that is distractable when I'm
trying to get it into the vehicle than my younger Border Terrier who is
in such a rush to go anywhere that as soon as I open that mini-van door,
he leaps for his crate, which is on Top of another crate.... and often
crashes..... because I haven't had time to open the crate door yet!
(Just rearranged things in the van to move him to the lower deck....)


He will happily sit by the open door until signalled to go in, but
leave the door open and walk away he makes his own decision to get in.
We have 'lost' him numerous times, only to find I have left the car's
door open for a few minutes in the garage and there he has been fast
asleep in the back of the car, in my locked garage.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


  #5  
Old June 9th 12, 01:34 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Harry Bloomfield
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Posts: 13
Default Behaviour odd - ADDED

Jo Wolf formulated the question :

So.... you don't know what happened before you got him. His preferences
for the female of the human species may be related to his past, not that
a man abused him, but perhaps he lived in a home with no men. So he
still isn't as sure of you as he is of her.


He was in a single human female home.


No dog Likes to be cornered. Many will cower just so long before they
either bolt or bite. Think that through. Don't corner this dog.


No, I am absolutely certain he would never bite a human, I have had to
corner him several times and if he can't push past he submits and waits
for a chance to get away. He has never shown any agresion to a human
other than barking at the postie.


You would be well served to get an evaluation of his reaction to other
dogs by a trainer or behaviorist.


Worth pursuing!

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


  #6  
Old June 12th 12, 11:59 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
canisfamiliaris
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Posts: 38
Default Behaviour odd

On 8 jun, 17:57, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
Male border colley crossed newfoundland, coming up to 7 years old. We
have had him for coming upto 2.5years. He is big and very soft with all
humans, great with kids, but can be vicious with other dogs if they
snap at him, brilliant behaviour and impeccable manners.


You describe him as 'vicious' and flying at other dogs. Has he ever
used his teeth on them? If not, it may be just his way of creating
space for himself from dogs he sees as threatening. My Tilly lunges
and barks at unruly dogs, but doesn't get too close to them, and has
never bitten another dog except her brother in play. She is just like
her mother and auntie in this. If he's all mouth and no trousers, it's
not such a problem. If he has made contact with his teeth, then it's
more serious, and yes, he needs to be assessed by someone with a lot
of experience. He may be helped by watching a well-run outdoor
training class as a spectator, to help him realise other dogs can come
close without anything bad happen. This worked for one collie cross I
used to walk. She stayed behind a barrier of flags that all the other
dogs had to respect as her boundary. After a few weeks as spectator,
she was able to take part in training exercises and focus on me rather
than trying to beat up the other dogs. She went to an outdoor class,
because the smells of other dogs are less intense than indoors.

You say elsewhere he was brought up with his siblings. Sometimes this
makes it more difficult for dogs to accept strange dogs, so more
practice as in watching training classes may help.

If you live somewhere with a stable dog walking population, at least
this allows you to anticipate problems, and take evasive action!
Sometimes you can help dogs make friends with other dogs they don't
like, through parallel walks. My Conor used to be spooked by our
neighbour's dog, much bigger and bouncier than him. So the neighbour
and I walked both dogs side by side on a leash, and I got Conor to sit
now and then, rewarding him with a titbit, so he was focusing on me
rather than the other dog. We did this for a few minutes before Conor
realised the neighour's dog was quite safe, and they got on fine after
that. It depends on the level of animosity between the dogs, and
having a co-operative owner of the other dog, Conor is intact, btw,
and he isn't bothered by gender either, just some much bigger dogs
spook him, while Tilly isn't bothered by size, unruliness spooks her.
Neutering males may not help their feeling they need to defend
themselves, tho' it does seem to make them less of a target for
attacks.

Except- he seems in some way scared or unable to trust me a male. (...) The other problem is he is just too obedient -


So the issue is that you need to build trust with him. Actually, he
sounds like a marvellous dog, and one you could do a lot with. Yes, as
Jo says, feeding can help build trust. Also doing interesting things
with him. He's wary of you, and wants to do stuff with you, or he
wouldn't be getting into the car. Think of this like a teacher at
school, who scared you a bit but you really wanted to impress them.
What would help you relax with this teacher? Probably, doing something
together that was so interesting you focused on the activity not your
worries about the teacher. There are two possible options. One is to
find a very experienced trainer who you feel comfortable with , and
who can teach you fun things to do with the dog, for example he may be
good at scent work. This sounds like a very soft dog, ie very
sensitive, so you need someone with a firm but gentle approach who
relaxes him, rather than an insensitive bellower who spooks him! (One
of my first trainers was ex-military and told me to shout all commands
at my collie-cross. There was no point as he obeyed a whisper ... and
the shouts were tiring for me and made the dog uptight). So look
around before you decide on a trainer. Fello dog walkers may be able
to recommend someone.

You can also buy books of games for dogs, There's one called 'Brain
games for dogs' which is very popular. And you can invent games
yourself. For example, hiding kibble in various locations while he is
in a sit-stay, then asking him to find it with a 'sniff' command. If
he likes retrieving, you could teach him to retrieve objects on
command, and by name..

Anyhow, Good luck with this special dog.

Alison, a brit in central Spain
  #7  
Old June 13th 12, 11:54 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Harry Bloomfield
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Posts: 13
Default Behaviour odd

canisfamiliaris formulated the question :

You describe him as 'vicious' and flying at other dogs. Has he ever
used his teeth on them?


It is just some dogs. He goes up to them all friendly, but if they
prove not to be friendly he then flies at them. He never bites, ever.
It is just so difficult to know in advance of an encounter, whether it
will be friendly or not.

In one encounter with an old dog, the old dog growled at him so he went
into attack. I was holding him back on the lead and he never got within
a couple of feet of the other dog, but the other dog started screaming
as if it had been actually injured - this was confirmed by a separate
witness. That resulted in its owner accusing us of having a viscous
dog. In most of the encounters, those who see what happens blame the
other dog for starting it and him for just responding.

None the less he is a big lad and could do damage if it did get out of
hand. His being on the lead seems to make it more likely he will
respond to trouble rather than less.

Size of the opposing dog or gender, or number makes no difference to
him. 9 out of 10 encounters are overly friendly. Once he has made
friends they are friends for life.


If not, it may be just his way of creating
space for himself from dogs he sees as threatening.


That sounds to be the likely cause.

This worked for one collie cross I
used to walk. She stayed behind a barrier of flags that all the other
dogs had to respect as her boundary. After a few weeks as spectator,
she was able to take part in training exercises and focus on me rather
than trying to beat up the other dogs. She went to an outdoor class,
because the smells of other dogs are less intense than indoors.


He has no problems with other dogs at a distance, other than watching
them, it is only when they get close to him.

You say elsewhere he was brought up with his siblings. Sometimes this
makes it more difficult for dogs to accept strange dogs, so more
practice as in watching training classes may help.


As said, 9 out of 10 dogs he is perfectly happy with. Last week on
holiday in the caravan there was one dog he had met before and was
friendly with. A stranger turned up in the field whilst he was out and
busy exploring. He saw the new dog, went trotting over to say hello and
instant friendship. Back he comes to collect a ball and they were
playing together for hours.

So the issue is that you need to build trust with him. Actually, he
sounds like a marvellous dog, and one you could do a lot with. Yes, as
Jo says, feeding can help build trust.


As said, I'm the one who actually gives him his food, but I am the only
one who takes him for walks and rides in the car. He seems to trust me
absolutely except under those certain circumstances. If the other half
goes away for an occasional day trip, he will go and just sulk in a
corner for the entire time she is away. At first he would not come out
even to eat his food until she returned. The first time she took one of
these trips, I heard a weird droning noise, which I eventually traced
to him howling very quietly. The next door neighbours had reported the
noise, when she had gone out shopping and I had been out at work for
the day, him left alone for an hour.

Mention walk, ride, or ball and out he comes in an instant, otherwise
he keeps well away from me, when inside the house.

Take him out shopping and if I go in a shop leaving them waiting
outside, he whines for me. If she goes in a shop leaving me and him
outside he will just sit perfectly content and quiet. I'm the one he
fusses over outside, she is the one he fusses over and becomes
concerned about at home. Its as if his allegiance swaps over
completely, between indoors and out.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


  #8  
Old June 13th 12, 04:43 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
canisfamiliaris
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Posts: 38
Default Behaviour odd

On 13 jun, 12:54, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
It is just some dogs. He goes up to them all friendly, but if they prove not to be friendly he then flies at them. He never bites, ever. It is just so difficult to know in advance of an encounter, whether it will be friendly or not.


Some dogs are very much spooked by size, ie dogs bigger than them.
Others are spooked by physical appearance, eg a dog once attacked by a
boxer may then fear all boxers. Now if he is going up to other dogs
all friendly, they may be too spooked by his size or whatever to read
his friendliness, may be frightened by his approach, and may therefore
panic. So, given that he is a big dog, I would be very careful about
letting him go up to strange dogs in case he frightens them and gets a
panic aggressive reaction that he can't cope with. If you want to
introduce him to a strange dog, parallel walking should teach the
other dog that he is safe. They can be let off the lead once they seem
OK with one another. That way you can pre-empt the panic reaction.

In one encounter with an old dog, the old dog growled at him so he went into attack. I was holding him back on the lead and he never got within a couple of feet of the other dog, but the other dog started screaming as if it had been actually injured - this was confirmed by a separate witness. That resulted in its owner accusing us of having a viscous dog. In most of the encounters, those who see what happens blame the other dog for starting it and him for just responding.


Yes, the screaming seems to be 'I give in' rather than 'I am hurt'. It
often scares the owner of the screamer, but is usually a dog using
social skills to prevent anything nasty happening.

None the less he is a big lad and could do damage if it did get out of hand. His being on the lead seems to make it more likely he will respond to trouble rather than less.


Yes, his being on the lead, and the other dog being on the lead. Dogs
on the lead cannot escape, or maintain a comfort distance, so may feel
forced into aggressive posturing.

Size of the opposing dog or gender, or number makes no difference to him. 9 out of 10 encounters are overly friendly. Once he has made friends they are friends for life.


That is good. It means that once you have introduced him to a
stranger, they should be OK.

He has no problems with other dogs at a distance, other than watching them, it is only when they get close to him.


At a flexible training class you can start within your dog's 'comfort
distance' and gradually decrease it as the dog gets better able to
handle another dog close by on the lead. There are exercises, like
walking towards another dog on the lead, which is walking towards you,
and crossing, that you can do once the dog has got used to being a
spectator. This can bring very good results. The dog I worked with
even got to tolerate unruly youngsters coming up and jumping all over
her when she was on the leash. In terms of training, you seem to have
done a lot with this dog, ie taught him rules so he behaves in a
civilised way. A good training class may help to get him more relaxed
about being with other dogs when both are on the lead. Tho' from what
you say, a lot of the problem is more that he is a target, because he
can spook other dogs. Some dogs look unthreatening, and are rarely if
ever attacked. Big dogs unfortunately are more likely to be targets if
they get too close to some dogs, because they look more scary. So,
tho' training classes may help, it's especially important to use pre-
emptive tactics when you meet strange dogs on walks, ie to manage
introductions carefully..

(...) He seems to trust me absolutely except under those certain circumstances. If the other half goes away for an occasional day trip, he will go and just sulk in a corner for the entire time she is away. At first he would not come out even to eat his food until she returned. The first time she took one of these trips, I heard a weird droning noise, which I eventually traced to him howling very quietly. The next door neighbours had reported the noise, when she had gone out shopping and I had been out at work for the day, him left alone for an hour. (...) Its as if his allegiance swaps over completely, between indoors and out.

Some of his traits seem very 'collie'. One trainer mentioned that she
could not stand the way collies 'grovelled', ie could be super-
deferential and obedient. Also fretting when a special person is away
is very collie. Collies and collie crosses in kennels are more likely
than dogs of other breeds to fret when they are away from their
owners. And yes, I have seen this switch of allegiances, depending on
circumstances, usually when there is a good reason. How much do you
interact with the dog indoors? There are lots of relatively sedate but
interesting indoor games you could play with the dog, so that he has
more reason to take notice of you indoors as well as out of doors.

  #9  
Old June 13th 12, 06:47 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Jo Wolf
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Posts: 479
Default Behaviour odd

Don't confuse Collies (rough or smooth) with Border Collies. Very
different personalities and temperaments.... Very different
intelligence levels (but Collies aren't dumb.... just not quite as
mentally quick as the BC).

Now..... If the dog is on a leash when being introduced to or greeting
another dog it doesn't know well, you are making a HUGE MISTAKE if you
hold your dog back by the leash or allow the leash to become tight at
all and so is the other owner!!!!!!!!!! When dogs are trained to
attack/act aggressively toward other dogs, the most common method is a
tight leash on approach to another dog. They can stay on leash, but the
humans must jockey around as needed to keep the leashes from tightening
at all.

Think this one through.... How do loose dogs first intereact? A
judicious approach followed by mutual sniffing of both ends. Either can
escape instantly if the need arises. If the dog or dogs have tight
leash(es) does either dog feel the necessary freedom of movement for a
natural meeting? Nope. In making that initial approach, they will come
in at an angle, rarely straight on. Placing your dog at an angle to
another, still or approaching, dog sends that same "I'm not here to
cause trouble," signal.

Years ago, there was a young Samoyed in our dog-social group on Friday
evenings. Ben would come blasting through the gate like a steam engine,
straight at the nearest dog and shove his face into the other dog's
face. This is a very pushy, aggressive (in dog language) move. But Ben
was just a young fool, not aggressive. So we taught Ben not to do this.
How? I would have my smaller and older Louie on leash, no other dogs
loose at the time. Just as Ben's nose stopped a half inch shy of
Louie's, I'd tighten the leash. Some time when you're near a Border
Terrier, ask the owner to show you it's canine teeth.... they're often
larger than a Labrador's..... Louie would reliably show Ben every tooth
in his head along with an extremely authentic snarl and forward lean,
with an impressive snap of his jaws.... on the air. Ben would back off,
I'd loosen the lead and no more stupidity from either dog. They could
go off leash right then and go off to explore the yard together. And
Ben was fine with other dogs for the next week. Took us about three
months to get Ben convinced to be a gentleman on initial approach.
Would've taken much less time if he'd been able to come on another 2
evenings a week..... In this case, Ben was a poorly mannered young
whippersnapper and was off leash.... and Louie was a dog who'd protect
himself if directly challenged in any manner.... even this reletively
mild supidity of Ben's.

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia, USA

  #10  
Old June 13th 12, 09:05 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Harry Bloomfield
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Posts: 13
Default Behaviour odd

After serious thinking canisfamiliaris wrote :
How much do you
interact with the dog indoors? There are lots of relatively sedate but
interesting indoor games you could play with the dog, so that he has
more reason to take notice of you indoors as well as out of doors.


I am able to interact with him very rarely, he normally doesn't want to
know - he just ignores my best attempts most of the time.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk


 




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