Handsome Jack Morrison wrote
in :

and also be
absolutely certain to get some hands-on *instruction* from a qualified
e-collar trainer.

Bill, if you take nothing else from what HJ said, let it be this phrase.

--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli

*******************************************
'Ahh!! They're dogs!! and...they're
playing POKER!!
*******************************************

But aren't you just delaying the transition then? As it is now, the
dog associates no leash = freedom to decide. You'll add the
restriction of the collar and once they understand the collar, then
don't they just think no collar = freedom to decide?

Note, this is a sincere question and not an attack on using an
e-collar. And really just an intellectual one, because I am
comfortable with just having my dogs leashed at all times. But, I am
very interested in this question because it would be nice to have more
knowledge on how to pursue (what is to me) the elusive off-leash 100%
reliable recall.

Carney wrote in
news
But aren't you just delaying the transition then? As it is now, the
dog associates no leash = freedom to decide. You'll add the
restriction of the collar and once they understand the collar, then
don't they just think no collar = freedom to decide?

Note, this is a sincere question and not an attack on using an
e-collar. And really just an intellectual one, because I am
comfortable with just having my dogs leashed at all times. But, I am
very interested in this question because it would be nice to have more
knowledge on how to pursue (what is to me) the elusive off-leash 100%
reliable recall.


This is part of why you'd want to get a qualified instructor to help with
using the E-Collar. The biggest mistake you can make is to get the dog
collar-wise. I own a real collar and a dummy collar. During the early
part of training, I just put the dummy on my dog and let her wear it
around. Now, she wears the collar as part of her field training outfit -
sometimes I plan to use it, sometimes I don't. She does not associate
the collar with the electronic stimulus, because there are plenty of
times when she wears it that nothing untoward happens.

We have two training phases: the Learning New Things phase, when I use
the collar, and the Getting Ready for a Trial phase, when I phase collar
stimulus out and then phase out the Wearing of the Collar. The week
before a trial, she's working nekkid.

Storm is a soft dog - I use the collar the way you would use a leash-pop,
as a *hey* stop what you're doing and think! (This would not work so
well if she were a dog who pops (sits up and looks for help) on blinds,
but that's not her problem). This way, I can communicate with a dog who
is 200 yds away from me and about to make a mistake. I do *not* use it
as a strong aversive, because she'd just shut down and take off for the
car. Other dogs - I'm thinking of high-drive, boneheaded field trial lab
- take a completely different approach.

HJM is right on target: always, always, work with a trainer you respect
and trust to get off on the right foot and make best use of this tool.

Kate

"Carney"
wrote:
But aren't you just delaying the transition then? As it is now, the
dog associates no leash = freedom to decide. You'll add the
restriction of the collar and once they understand the collar, then
don't they just think no collar = freedom to decide?

Which is why the folks I know who use e-collars for misson-critical
recall always have the collar ON the dog under those circumstances. Like a
leash or a whistle, once the dog is trained to respond to it, it's used as a
way of getting the dog's attention -
difference being that with the e-collar, you have it remotely at great
distance.

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:23:42 GMT, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

A very good e-collar (I highly recommend the Tri-Tronics brand) will
set you back several hundred dollars, and you should never use
anything but a very good e-collar. Many e-collars are basically junk,
for example, the kind you can find in places like PetSmart. Stay away
from them.

Bullshit. You don't need to spend hundreds of dollars, Bill. You can
get an automotive ignition coil, a battery pack, and a
radio-controlled solonoid for less than $50. Your home-made e-collar
won't be as lightweight as the store-bought units, but it will pack a
corrective wallop like none other.

[SNIP]

PS: If you decide to go with the e-collar, again, make sure that you
buy a very good one (your dog will thank you for it), and also be

Yeah, right. Stick your dog's thank-you note in the night deposit box
and see what it gets you in the morning.

Go for the cheapest, highest voltage unit you can get your hands on,
Bill. The whole point of these collars is to inflict pain -- enough
pain so the animal will avoid repeating the experience at all costs.
That's the result we're after here. Don't let liberals like Jack
Morrison tell you otherwise.

Charlie

I've actually been watching a neighbor train his dog for hunting.
It's been kind of fun to compare methods and expectations. He is only
training 4 commands (heel, come, fetch, hold - I think) but is working
towards 100% reliability off-leash. My dogs know many more commands,
but unless I get inspired. they will likely never have the off-leash
reliability he will achieve with his dog.

He is using a collar right now and mentioned to me that he messed up.
The dog has caught on to the importance of the collar so he said it
will be hard now to wean him off, which is why I wondered how it
should work.

This post is sick!!!! Why would you want to hurt a dog? The only
people who use pain to train are people who don't know how to train.
I have a dog with 100% recall off leash and he has never been
subjected to pain or force!!
Wits End works for a 100% recall and the training manual is free and
pain free for your dog.


Charlie Wilkes wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:23:42 GMT, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

A very good e-collar (I highly recommend the Tri-Tronics brand) will
set you back several hundred dollars, and you should never use
anything but a very good e-collar. Many e-collars are basically junk,
for example, the kind you can find in places like PetSmart. Stay away
from them.

Bullshit. You don't need to spend hundreds of dollars, Bill. You can
get an automotive ignition coil, a battery pack, and a
radio-controlled solonoid for less than $50. Your home-made e-collar
won't be as lightweight as the store-bought units, but it will pack a
corrective wallop like none other.

[SNIP]

PS: If you decide to go with the e-collar, again, make sure that you
buy a very good one (your dog will thank you for it), and also be

Yeah, right. Stick your dog's thank-you note in the night deposit box
and see what it gets you in the morning.

Go for the cheapest, highest voltage unit you can get your hands on,
Bill. The whole point of these collars is to inflict pain -- enough
pain so the animal will avoid repeating the experience at all costs.
That's the result we're after here. Don't let liberals like Jack
Morrison tell you otherwise.

Charlie

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:36:40 GMT, Carney wrote:

I've actually been watching a neighbor train his dog for hunting.
It's been kind of fun to compare methods and expectations. He is only
training 4 commands (heel, come, fetch, hold - I think) but is working
towards 100% reliability off-leash. My dogs know many more commands,
but unless I get inspired. they will likely never have the off-leash
reliability he will achieve with his dog.

He is using a collar right now and mentioned to me that he messed up.
The dog has caught on to the importance of the collar so he said it
will be hard now to wean him off, which is why I wondered how it
should work.

Interesting problem, eh? Perhaps your neighbor should consider having
the shock device implanted, like a pacemaker. Then he will have total
control over his dog until the batteries wear out.

Charlie

On 29 Jul 2003 20:33:39 -0700, (Linda) wrote:

This post is sick!!!! Why would you want to hurt a dog? The only
people who use pain to train are people who don't know how to train.
I have a dog with 100% recall off leash and he has never been
subjected to pain or force!!
Wits End works for a 100% recall and the training manual is free and
pain free for your dog.

Did Jerry pay you to write that?

Charlie

Charlie Wilkes wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:23:42 GMT, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

A very good e-collar (I highly recommend the Tri-Tronics brand) will
set you back several hundred dollars, and you should never use
anything but a very good e-collar. Many e-collars are basically junk,
for example, the kind you can find in places like PetSmart. Stay away
from them.

Bullshit. You don't need to spend hundreds of dollars, Bill. You can
get an automotive ignition coil, a battery pack, and a
radio-controlled solonoid for less than $50. Your home-made e-collar
won't be as lightweight as the store-bought units, but it will pack a
corrective wallop like none other.

[SNIP]

PS: If you decide to go with the e-collar, again, make sure that you
buy a very good one (your dog will thank you for it), and also be

Yeah, right. Stick your dog's thank-you note in the night deposit box
and see what it gets you in the morning.

Go for the cheapest, highest voltage unit you can get your hands on,
Bill. The whole point of these collars is to inflict pain -- enough
pain so the animal will avoid repeating the experience at all costs.
That's the result we're after here. Don't let liberals like Jack
Morrison tell you otherwise.

Charlie

I have a dog with 100% recall off leash

Under what circumstances? What's the dog's breed makeup, and where do you
let it off leash?




--
Sarah
Brenin, CGC, AD, O-EAC-V, O-EJC-V, EGC
Gwydion, Handy Cat
Morag Thistledown, Novice Triple Superior, S-OAC, S-OJC, O-OGC, EJC
Robyn Meezer, Inspector of Human Activity
Rocsi Cadarn, S-NJC, NAC, NGTG, OGTG