I just got done with a third class with Ender, this one a repeat of basic
obedience with a new instructor. He did good in the class, except for one
issue I disagree with the instructor on.
For loose leash walking she refers to it as loose leash/heel, in
talking and her notes. What she teaches is having the dog walk right next
to you in heel position, with automatic sits when you stop. To me that
is heeling, loose leash walking is simply a loose leash no matter where the
dog walks. They are not interchangeable. In my other classes that was the
way it was too.
I mildly irritated the instructor by not making Ender heel when told to
demonstrate loose leash. (She made a frowny face at me, and said, "Well
that's not right but if your happy with that...") I know I could have made
him heel just to get through the exercise with a happy teach, but I was
being a bit of a booger since the whole issue bugged me.
So anyway, who's right about this?

-Jenn

Where I teach, we don't even use the word "heel" until the 5th week of a
10 week course... Heel is a specific position and degree of attention
to the handler. Walking with a loose lead can be actually in heel
position (makes transition to "heel" easier, when the time comes), but
an automatic sit is not needed. Is she trying to boost the number of
frustrated drop-outs?

In our basic classes, heel and automatic sit are introduced, not given a
huge degree of focus. A true, precision heel with good attention under
marked distraction takes close to a couple of years of guided training.
We teach it so they know what it is and isn't and for closer control in
crowded or "need control" situations like passing kids with ice cream
cones and hot dogs at canine nose level or crossing the street briskly.
We think it's Much more important to be able to take a pleasant walk
with out strangling the dog or damaging the handler's shoulder(s)... and
to keep the dog close for safety/control as needed without stressing all
concerned.

I don't believe in deceiving the client. If it ain't heeling in the
true application of the term, I don't use the word. I certainly
wouldn't introduce either as early as the 3rd week of class as the dogs
aren't ready for it and certainly most handlers are still struggling to
keep the lead loose for more than three feet of walking because they are
not yet confident about not having a death grip on the lead and hauling
the dog tightly on the lead for what they perceive as "control".

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

"Jo Wolf" wrote in message
...
Where I teach, we don't even use the word "heel" until the 5th week of a
10 week course... Heel is a specific position and degree of attention
to the handler. Walking with a loose lead can be actually in heel
position (makes transition to "heel" easier, when the time comes), but
an automatic sit is not needed. Is she trying to boost the number of
frustrated drop-outs?

In our basic classes, heel and automatic sit are introduced, not given a
huge degree of focus. A true, precision heel with good attention under
marked distraction takes close to a couple of years of guided training.
We teach it so they know what it is and isn't and for closer control in
crowded or "need control" situations like passing kids with ice cream
cones and hot dogs at canine nose level or crossing the street briskly.
We think it's Much more important to be able to take a pleasant walk
with out strangling the dog or damaging the handler's shoulder(s)... and
to keep the dog close for safety/control as needed without stressing all
concerned.

I don't believe in deceiving the client. If it ain't heeling in the
true application of the term, I don't use the word. I certainly
wouldn't introduce either as early as the 3rd week of class as the dogs
aren't ready for it and certainly most handlers are still struggling to
keep the lead loose for more than three feet of walking because they are
not yet confident about not having a death grip on the lead and hauling
the dog tightly on the lead for what they perceive as "control".

Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia

I wasn't clear about something. This was mine and Ender's 3rd
class we have taken together... (puppy k, plus 2 beginer obedience
classes) The class is now over, as it was a 7 week (1 day p/week) class
and the last day was Monday.
I'd have to look at our notes, but I'm thinking that she had us start
the heel-called-loose-leash thing on the 4th week. I agree that that was
too early though to be expecting a heel w/sit. I know all but one of my
classmates had their dog on a very tight leash w/deathgrip for the walk
across the room the last day. They were not corrected for that either,
which I thought was odd.

-Jenn

You are right, loose leash is just that a loose leash whether the dog is
forged or lagging or wide. Heeling is sticking close to you side and sitting
when you stop. Just tell her that you are not concerned with heeling only a
loose leash and ignore her frowny faces. Take your next set of lessons with
someone else.


--
Kristen &
Kali CD, CGC, TDI, TT
http://www.kristenandkali.com




"peejoe" wrote in message
...
I just got done with a third class with Ender, this one a repeat of basic
obedience with a new instructor. He did good in the class, except for
one
issue I disagree with the instructor on.
For loose leash walking she refers to it as loose leash/heel, in
talking and her notes. What she teaches is having the dog walk right
next
to you in heel position, with automatic sits when you stop. To me that
is heeling, loose leash walking is simply a loose leash no matter where
the
dog walks. They are not interchangeable. In my other classes that was
the
way it was too.
I mildly irritated the instructor by not making Ender heel when told
to
demonstrate loose leash. (She made a frowny face at me, and said, "Well
that's not right but if your happy with that...") I know I could have
made
him heel just to get through the exercise with a happy teach, but I was
being a bit of a booger since the whole issue bugged me.
So anyway, who's right about this?

-Jenn

So anyway, who's right about this?

IMO, heel is more formal and precise than the looseleash walk. For me, unless
I am planning on showing, loose leash walk is fine.

It just depends on what you want. If you want your dog to do a formal heel,
then teach it that way. Although I don't understand why anyone would want a
formal heel if they weren't planning on showing....

Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

(DogStar716) wrote in message ...
It just depends on what you want. If you want your dog to do a formal heel,
then teach it that way. Although I don't understand why anyone would want a
formal heel if they weren't planning on showing....

A more formal heel could be useful for dogs that are very distractable
and reactive. If they stay close to your side, with their attention
on you, they're less likely to get nutty about that dog walking by, or
that jogger running past.

At least that's been my experience. Zoe is very dog reactive, and
I've found pulling her into a heel and keeping her focus on me to be
very helpful. I think that's somewhat what Lynn was saying in the
"enforcing sit" thread.

For me the heel accomplishes a few things at once. First, it brings
her close enough that I can communicate more effectively with my
leash, my voice and my hands. Second, it puts her attention more on
me, and less on the things she might react to. And finally, it puts
much more slack in the leash, so she's less likely to hit the end of
the leash and tense up.

Of course, Zoe's heel is nowhere near competition level. I'm
generally happy with her head being somewhat even with my knee, and
within a foot or so of my leg, with maybe one eye keeping tabs on what
I'm doing.

-Jay

(Jo Wolf) wrote in message ...
Where I teach, we don't even use the word "heel" until the 5th week of a
10 week course... Heel is a specific position and degree of attention
to the handler.

Yep. Heel is taught as a stationary position only, in conjunction
with targeting, in my beginning classes. It's never used when moving
with the dog. That said, they do learn loose leash walking in
approximate heel position and most work is done with the dog at heel,
and my interpretation of loose leash would preclude the dog getting
more than a body length forged or lagged before the leash would
tighten on its own, simply by the way it is held.

Lynn K.

To me that
is heeling, loose leash walking is simply a loose leash no matter where
the
dog walks. They are not interchangeable. In my other classes that was
the
way it was too.

-Jenn
I'm not a trainer....but I agree with you Jenn. From my
experiences....what she
was asking for is not a loose leash walk.

Jan

I agree, but I'm not a trainer, and have only trained my own dogs. Helped a
few friends too, but only with some things.
Anyway, I agree with both of you, loose leash is let them walk on the leash
all the while sniffing around and stopping to dribble a 'mark', (I always
scoop the poop), and just having fun walking together. A 'heel' is right by
my side, but a 'heel' position on a loose leash is a good idea, too. Ask her
exactly what she is trying to 'get' out of this, a comfortable heel? Maybe?
As 'loose leash', sometimes, for elderly ppl, would perhaps have the dogs
pulling them all around? I'm interested in what the *real* trainers have to
say, too.

MaryBeth
Rudy Ceilidh and Zack

BTW, my Dad's little Yorkshire Terrier, Corky, was killed last Sat. out in
Kansas.
Every time my Dad goes anywhere, Corky would jump into the car, sometimes
had to be put back in house or other times was able to go. They are very
loving caring ppl, who loved that little star. It was just one of those
things, it happens.
Anyway, my Dad was cleaning out some things in the car, and Corky pulled his
usual 'trick' and hid under the passenger seat. Dad left the windows down,
and went in for a nap. They found the poor little guy a couple of hours
later, as Dad had thought he was gone out with my Mom and Mom had gone right
out after that, thinking the pup was downstairs with my Dad.

He was in his fave little hidey hole...still under the passenger seat, dead
from heat stroke!

I am heartbroken, as my parents are getting on....and my sis and I are going
to go thru rescue to find another one. (This one was from a BYB, a good one
but too hefty a price, as they are in their mid to late 70's.) My father is
in such agony and guilt. He knew to never let Corky go with him in the heat.
He just didn't see him 'sneak' in while the door was open.
So we think a rescue, girl dog this time, already housebroken will hopefully
be amenable to my Dad. I'm paying for it, even tho he hasn't talked to me in
years, over some silly little family spat. He will chat about Mom's cancer,
but that's about it.
I'm going to post to the rescue but if anyone knows of a 2-5 yr old Yorkie
gal/guy, that is in rescue, let me know. They are in Kansas, I'm in NJ, but
I'm willing to play plane fare, and if I have to go pick him up and take
him/her to my Dad. Or even get a CUR run for him/her, everyone taking a
'leg' of the trip.
So just waiting for Mom to let us know if he wants another dog now. that
little Yorkie had my Dad wrapped around his little teeny dew claw. He was
wracked with sobs and fell in the grave he was digging, until my nephew
offered to dig it.
My Dad has cried four times that I know of. Each time he lost one of his two
sons, (my brothers), and once while talking with me about some old old stuff
when I was in college.
And now, about his beloved wee pal.

"MaryBeth" wrote in
news:157f20aceeda222aa83b9a543618a018@TeraNews:

BTW, my Dad's little Yorkshire Terrier, Corky, was killed last Sat.
out in Kansas.


Send my condolences to your father. Here are some links to Yorkies
(female) in rescue/pounds I found on Petfinder.com

Kansas has 3 females
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...9243&adTarget=
468doggeneral&SessionID=3f2968c539fed90c-app3&display=&preview=&row=0
or
http://tinyurl.com/inn6

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...9329&adTarget=
468doggeneral&SessionID=3f2968c539fed90c-app3&display=&preview=&row=0
or
http://tinyurl.com/innf

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...9342&adTarget=
468doggeneral&SessionID=3f2968c539fed90c-app3&display=&preview=&row=0
or
http://tinyurl.com/innh
This one is actually two dogs (yorkie, Great Pyrenees who have bonded. I
think that they come in a group)



Here are the results for NJ (2 female dogs)
http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...1923&adTarget=
468doggeneral&SessionID=3f2969e2280ba4f2-app1&display=&preview=&row=0
or
http://tinyurl.com/innp

http://www.petfinder.com/pet.cgi?act...7447&adTarget=
468doggeneral&SessionID=3f2969e2280ba4f2-app1&display=&preview=&row=0
or
http://tinyurl.com/innu





--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli

*******************************************
'If you want the best seat in the
house, move the cat.'
*******************************************

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, MaryBeth wrote:

So just waiting for Mom to let us know if he wants another dog now. that
little Yorkie had my Dad wrapped around his little teeny dew claw. He was
wracked with sobs and fell in the grave he was digging, until my nephew
offered to dig it.

aw, MaryBeth, that really sucks. i'm so sorry about your
dad's little guy. what a devastating loss. i hope your
parents are gonna be okay. i'll be thinking good thoughts for
all of you.

--
shelly (foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette