I Got Bitten Today

#1 August 29th 03, 01:59 AM

From:

First of all, I didn't say "evil." Please don't put words into my
mouth.

I honestly didn't mean to, though I did. Bad Debbie! Bad! That came
from reading many of your posts since you've become involved in BC's.

Well, no -- if the dog's a good working dog, he's a good working dog.
But if the breeding program is primarily aiming for something else,
eventually good working dogs will be produced only by fluke, not by
design.

Maybe it would be more accurate to replace 'working' with 'herding' in
the above? Agility is very much 'working', at least at the upper levels
with intense dogs.

Why do people think something as complex as real working ability will?

You mean herding? Because, again, agility is very much 'working'. And
with the world changing as it does, there would seem to be more 'use'
for a working agility dog than a working herding dog.

This is a red herring. Why would that follow?

'Working' dogs aren't bred as pets. If it's so important to remain
strictly hard core herding dogs, where are the pups going to live? Why
isn't it as important that they live their lives doing what they were
bred to do?

You say that like it's a bad thing.

It _is, to many of us. We want pups, not adolescents that have been
socialized and raised by someone else.

First of all, since you can't tell if a puppy is going to be a great
working dog, or at least any better than any of its siblings,

Are you talking specifically about herding? Because there _is a
difference in pups, at least the kind of pups I evaluate for clients and
students. Either I"m incredibly lucky in evaluating good performance
prospects, or there _is much to be seen in larvaes. I'm only looking at
west coast breeders, cuz there's just no way in hell anyone is picking
out my pup _for me.

Second of all, I don't really see how this is different from other
breeds where conformation is the major selective criterion. I don't see
anyone out there saying that only show homes should have well-bred
Papillons, for example.

But here's a huge difference between a working breed and a toy breed,
no? The working breed has drives that need to be met. How one lives
with a dog isn't changed by the degree of stop.

There is very little demand in the general dog world for perfect
conformation dogs

Good structure is a must if the dog is going to spend many years
running, jumping, and climbing. If you're only herding once a week,
structure isn't so important. For agility, I _need a structurally
balanced dog. I can't have a dog with extreme angulation in the rear
and board straight in front. BTDT, and she broke. {And I knew she
would, but that's a long story, and I come out looking like a softie in
the end. I hate that.} I need a nice, balanced dog, and the 'sport'
breeders are the only ones I"m aware of attempting to produce them. If
there's a working/herding breeder on the west coast doing the same,
please let me know. I only know about 15 'sport' bred BCs, and I like
them all very much. The one that I know are off working ranches, not so
much. Mostly due to structure, a few, temperament. shrug But I've
only started to research in the last year or so.

Does the average agility person running, say, a Sheltie care if her
puppy was a "conformation washout" due to its markings?

Heavens, no. But she does care if the dogs has splayed feet, is
easty-westy, unbalanced, has too-straight pasterns, etc.

Why do you think you can't get this from a well-bred working litter?

Because I've never once seen a very well conformed 'herding bred' BC.
Most are stick straight in front, and my dog has to do a _lot of landing
on the front end. And I'm more apt to look at dogs from health tested
lines, and there seems to be a lot more of that in sport litters, rather
than 'working' litters.

You know how horrifying it is to see an aggressive Golden? Wouldn't it
be pointless to breed Goldens to be guard dogs? Wouldn't that seem kind
of ridiculous and not good for the breed?

IMO, that's not even close to what we're talking about. There isn't
_that much difference between a dog working at agility, and a dog
working at herding. Certainly not the night/day difference between a
good GR and Cujo in a GR suit. You've got the same biddability, drives,
intelligence, independence in sport/herding dogs. A sport breeder doing
a good job isn't going to change the entire nature of the dog, as in
your GR example, just shift focus a little. A teensie little smidge.
To me, it seems it would be better to keep the vast majority of
qualities that can still be used, rather than stick to what was
original, but has little to no use anymore. shrug

There aren't very many people out there who really give a **** about
coat type or degree of stop either, but legitimate breeding decisions
are made in other breeds for these kinds of reasons every day.

But the degree of stop doesn't make the dog unsuitable for the average
joe pet home. I don't understand the desire to only produce working
herding dogs when there's no sheep to be caught up.

Let's say the sport breeders start their own registry, and call the
dogs... hmmm... National Sport Dogs. Yanno, kinda like National Show
Horses. EG Now whadda ya think? Does the name change make it more
palatable?

Debbie

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