From:

Doesn't necessarily mean anything, or at least not what it's
represented to mean. I could describe Solo's pedigree the same way, but
he isn't a well bred dog.

Okay, so tell me what we should be looking for, cuz I don't get it. If
I can't trust Border Collie people in the sport, I'm sunk, because I
have no desire or time to start going to sheepdog trials. I only lurk
on lists. I really dislike field magg... er, sheep. G If working
farms/ranches don't produce good dogs, and sport people haven't a clue,
that leaves sheepdog trial people, which doesn't make any sense to my
way of thinking, anyway. Those dogs are _sport dogs. What's the
difference between trial dogs and working ranch dogs, in your opinion?

I apparently got her right out from under the noses of a bunch of top
handlers who wanted to buy her and were just a couple of hours too late.


In most breeds and sports, a dog _that good at what it does wouldn't
have been sold to an unknown/unproven handler. It would have been held
back and placed selectively. Why do you think you got her?

How would you feel if someone took real working-line GSDs -- you know,
the kind that take your breath away -- and started breeding GSDs just
for agility? And threw all the other stuff out?

I don't know. Truly. I looked carefully for a dog without the heavy
bone and angulation. I"d like her smaller, but there ya go. If someone
were attempting to breed agility GSDs, I'd go look. :-) I had to sit
on my hands to keep from calling a woman that has an 18 month old bred
very similarly to Kira, that's only 19" and 50 lbs. But that dog has it
all, just in a smaller frame. The timing isn't right, or she'd be
laying on my carpet as I type this.

I don't see that sport BC breeders I've knowledge of are 'throwing all
the other stuff out'. The dogs they're producing are very much
recognizable as Border Collies. They act like 'em, look like 'em, work
like 'em. The breeder I'm considering won't breed anything that doesn't
work sheep, and won't release the papers on dogs for breeding unless the
dogs are 'proven' on sheep. That's a far cry from 'throwing all the
other stuff out'. Is it enough? I don't know. I don't want to work
sheep. I want an awesome agility dog prospect.

But -- she's talented, and you like her, and she's sound, right?

I wouldn't say how sound she is. She's only with me part time, so she
doesn't train as much as I'd like. Yes, she's talented. I'd like a
better front on her, and she has bad teeth. Not decay, but little
enamel and very soft. She's a terrific pinecone herder.

There are any number of Border Collies just like her competing
successfully in agility all over the country, you could easily find
another like her most likely -- so why the need for a custom-job pup?

I would not have selected her due to her stick-straight front. And, as
I said in another post, I don't have the time or the resources to be
flying all over the country looking for dogs with good structure. I
want a nice, balanced dog. With all the scary conformation I see at
trials, they don't appear to grow on trees.

I can't afford to accumulate dogs (since I'd have a really hard time
rehoming any) while searching endlessly for "the one."

Exactly. That's why I"m looking now, for a pup I don't plan on for a
couple of years or so.

Not only is a dog who has been campaigned hard enough, young enough,
to break down by the age of two a baby,

I said before that while I suspect some have been worked hard, I know
for a fact of some that haven't. And they broke down. They had bad
fronts, the owners went and bought a BC pup off a working ranch, from
working parents, not knowing anything about structure. And it bit 'em
in the butt. Jumping and weaving is much different than working on the
flat.

Debbie

"Debbie S" wrote:

the owners went and bought a BC pup off a working ranch, from
working parents, not knowing anything about structure. And it bit 'em
in the butt.

Anecdotal datapoint: someone in my agility club has gone out of her way to
get dogs from lines that have actually been used for stock; IOW dogs from
working farms. One had to have surgery on both hips and one shoulder before
the age of one, and died at five of oestosarcoma. Another has severe food
allergies, and her youngest (not yet a year old) came up lame a couple of
months ago and had to have shoulder surgery.
A second person in my club has two dogs from related lines, from "good
working breeders"; she researched long and hard before picking both dogs.
One dog lost a hind leg to oesteosarcoma at a very young age, the other has
problems with her tendons.

"Debbie S" wrote:

the owners went and bought a BC pup off a working ranch, from
working parents, not knowing anything about structure. And it bit 'em
in the butt.

Anecdotal datapoint: someone in my agility club has gone out of her way to
get dogs from lines that have actually been used for stock; IOW dogs from
working farms. One had to have surgery on both hips and one shoulder before
the age of one, and died at five of oestosarcoma. Another has severe food
allergies, and her youngest (not yet a year old) came up lame a couple of
months ago and had to have shoulder surgery.
A second person in my club has two dogs from related lines, from "good
working breeders"; she researched long and hard before picking both dogs.
One dog lost a hind leg to oesteosarcoma at a very young age, the other has
problems with her tendons.

"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
sionnach ) wrote:

: Anecdotal datapoint: someone in my agility club...

It's amazing I know any sound dogs at all, isn't it? And yet, somehow I
know dozens. Isn't that strange?


No one is saying you don't. What we're saying is that they might be just a
teeny bit less available than you think they are. And Deb's point is quite
valid. If you're doing all the research, that means to me that you'd point
toward dogs who actually DO the work--as in, work on real ranches in real
situations. And what we're saying is that we see dogs from these backgrounds
who are not good dogs--far more of them than we ever see of the good ones.
It's not that we don't know they exist, but all of the normal paradigms of
picking a good working dog by actually going to the source don't seem to
work in this case.

"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
sionnach ) wrote:

: Anecdotal datapoint: someone in my agility club...

It's amazing I know any sound dogs at all, isn't it? And yet, somehow I
know dozens. Isn't that strange?


No one is saying you don't. What we're saying is that they might be just a
teeny bit less available than you think they are. And Deb's point is quite
valid. If you're doing all the research, that means to me that you'd point
toward dogs who actually DO the work--as in, work on real ranches in real
situations. And what we're saying is that we see dogs from these backgrounds
who are not good dogs--far more of them than we ever see of the good ones.
It's not that we don't know they exist, but all of the normal paradigms of
picking a good working dog by actually going to the source don't seem to
work in this case.

From: (sionnach)

snipped several bad outcomes from working dog acquisitions

And this is exactly what I'm afraid of. :-(

Debbie

From: (sionnach)

snipped several bad outcomes from working dog acquisitions

And this is exactly what I'm afraid of. :-(

Debbie

,
Just because the dog is from a "working ranch" doesn't
say a lot.

Which was actually my point. G

,
Just because the dog is from a "working ranch" doesn't
say a lot.

Which was actually my point. G

(Melanie L Chang) wrote in
:

Debbie S ) wrote:

: Okay, so tell me what we should be looking for, cuz I don't get it.
: If I can't trust Border Collie people in the sport, I'm sunk, because
: I have no desire or time to start going to sheepdog trials.

Now, come on. How do you expect me to react to that? How much do we
like it here when newbies show up and say, "I wanna get me a Lab from
the paper, I don't care about them there show dogs, I just want a
pet?" I feel like responsibly finding a puppy involves getting to
know the breed and what it's bred for, whether that be sheepdog
trials, ranch work, conformation, varmint hunting, whatever.

Don't we tell people interested in conformation breeds to attend dog
shows and get to know good breeders when they're looking for a pup?
Why the heck is this situation any different?



Is the implication that a dog not specifically bred to herd sheep is bred by a bad breeder?

The difference is that a dog doing agility IS working. Its not doing the work it was bred to
do, but its still working.