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  #2  
Old August 30th 03, 07:48 PM
Shelly & The Boys
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"Debbie S" wrote in message
...

From:

If there isn't any real work left for Border Collies, therefore we
don't need real working Border Collies anymore, then where exactly are
all these ranches that all these crappily-structured Border Collies are
coming from?

The ones I'm aware of are coming from WA, ID, and to a lesser extent,
OR.


And, to throw this is (Sorry, I didn't get in on the beginnings of
this one):
How many "real working ranches" are there on the East Coast,
or PA/NJ/NY type area in comparison to what there are out here.
There are still a considerable amount of people out here that
earn their livings with livestock based ranches/farms, especially
in the Eastern part of WA & OR, and northern ID. And, yes, there
are a lot of crappy structured BCs that come from those ranches.
I'm thinking of a place out of Ellensburg, WA just off the top of my
head that I've seen a few "disaster BCs" come into our clinic
alone, and we're a good distance from Ellensburg. But, they
advertise, and farm folks looking for a good started dog to do
small (and/or hobby) farm work will turn to them.
And I won't even begin w/ the "working dogs" out at my husband's
families ranch. Several of them are great workers, but few
of them make it past 5 or 6 years of age because their body
breaks down. I'm not disputing the fact that they made poor
judgment in choosing who/where their dogs come from, but
they're out there just like the "really nice dogs" are.
Shelly & The Boys


  #3  
Old August 30th 03, 07:48 PM
Shelly & The Boys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Debbie S" wrote in message
...

From:

If there isn't any real work left for Border Collies, therefore we
don't need real working Border Collies anymore, then where exactly are
all these ranches that all these crappily-structured Border Collies are
coming from?

The ones I'm aware of are coming from WA, ID, and to a lesser extent,
OR.


And, to throw this is (Sorry, I didn't get in on the beginnings of
this one):
How many "real working ranches" are there on the East Coast,
or PA/NJ/NY type area in comparison to what there are out here.
There are still a considerable amount of people out here that
earn their livings with livestock based ranches/farms, especially
in the Eastern part of WA & OR, and northern ID. And, yes, there
are a lot of crappy structured BCs that come from those ranches.
I'm thinking of a place out of Ellensburg, WA just off the top of my
head that I've seen a few "disaster BCs" come into our clinic
alone, and we're a good distance from Ellensburg. But, they
advertise, and farm folks looking for a good started dog to do
small (and/or hobby) farm work will turn to them.
And I won't even begin w/ the "working dogs" out at my husband's
families ranch. Several of them are great workers, but few
of them make it past 5 or 6 years of age because their body
breaks down. I'm not disputing the fact that they made poor
judgment in choosing who/where their dogs come from, but
they're out there just like the "really nice dogs" are.
Shelly & The Boys


  #4  
Old August 31st 03, 04:51 PM
Shelly & The Boys
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
But you know, I still believe you when you say you have a good
one, and know good ones, and that they aren't all spooky freaks who'll
take your face off as soon as wag a tail.


Okay...now, to put you on the defensive was not at all what I
was intending, but rather just trying to put forth what we've got
out *here*. I do believe you Melanie, just like I'd like to think
that people will believe me when I say there *are* good Belgians
out there, even though the population is considerably smaller,
and you've just got to get out there and LOOK. Hell, my neighbor
down the road raises sheep for a living, and has 2 very nice
BCs, temperament-wise. Health-wise, I can't comment on, because
it's just not a conversation we've ever head.
Since I had never been to your region before, I honestly wanted to
know what sort of sheep operations were in & around the area.
(Just the same as my honest, "I asked because I don't know & want
to find out!" question sheep who've never seen BC's in another
post.)


You know, there are a whole lot of us out there fighting for this breed,
who love it and are mystified by it and find it amazing and don't want it
to change. We're not a bunch of dummies. I cut my teeth in the dog
world here, on these newsgroups, so I went in as skeptical as any of
you. I am an empiricist. Data convinces me. When I say that this is an
amazing breed and that there are a lot of really great dogs out there,
dogs who are temperamentally and physically sound, and when I say I
think I'll have a very hard time finding a good pup from a responsible
breeder when the time comes,


Okay...here is something. YOU think you'll have an easy time finding
a good puppy. Just like I know that *I* won't have a tough time finding
my next Belgian. You, like me, know people IN the breed. Know
where to look and where not to look. But, I'd venture to say it's not
always that way for someone not already involved in the breed--no
matter how experienced they are.
And I do say it, because I have a friend who's been in Belgians for a long
time, breeds, handles her own dogs in conformation, trains and competes
in both agility and herding with if not all, most of her dogs that is
currently
looking into another breed for her son. In that other breed, she literally
knows but a small handful of people. She is starting at the bottom, so
to speak. Yes, she's got clout, definitely, but she's finding out that
she still has to go through all of the games to find the real honest
answers to stuff she wants to know.

I'm not lying and I'm not making **** up.
YOU GUYS taught me how to evaluate breeders and dogs. I started reading
these groups before I got Harley. (These groups are how I got Harley.)
Read this again: I'm not making this **** up!


I never thought that you were. But, you are seeing things from "inside"
the BC circle, which isn't where Debbie, or anyone else that isn't
involved in BCs. And, yes, I'm sure that as much as anyone, you
worked very hard to learn about the breed & people involved in it
to be there. BC's are a common breed out here. "Farm dogs" like
BCs, Aussies & ACDs are a dime a dozen in the Pac. NW. That
new Cowboy phase that hit several years ago, when nearly every
guy in the small towns drove around town in a huge Dodge pick-up
truck and at least one of those 3 breeds in the back, left a pretty
good population explosion within a few years time. That's
not to say that East Coast isn't overrun w/ BCs & the like in shelters,
because I know they've got their share. I guess my point is,
that there are just way more crappy ones than good ones. BUT,
I'm not involved in the breed--so I only see it from the outside.
..
I'm sad not only because some people will never understand why working a
real Border Collie on stock is so magical, but also because they don't
even care to try.


And, if it matters at all, I *do* happen to care. This is coming from
someone that is new to the sport, but it's already taken such a hold
on my own life that it's something I'd rather do than just about anything
else. To try & explain *why* I enjoy going herding with Bodhi to someone
that's never gone is almost pointless. Unless you've been there, and
seen it, and felt the way you do when that "lightbulb" just goes on, or
when they start flanking the way they should (instead of circling all of the
time!), or when they do their first "stop" or walk-up, they won't
understand.
shrug
Shelly & The Boys


  #5  
Old August 31st 03, 04:51 PM
Shelly & The Boys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
But you know, I still believe you when you say you have a good
one, and know good ones, and that they aren't all spooky freaks who'll
take your face off as soon as wag a tail.


Okay...now, to put you on the defensive was not at all what I
was intending, but rather just trying to put forth what we've got
out *here*. I do believe you Melanie, just like I'd like to think
that people will believe me when I say there *are* good Belgians
out there, even though the population is considerably smaller,
and you've just got to get out there and LOOK. Hell, my neighbor
down the road raises sheep for a living, and has 2 very nice
BCs, temperament-wise. Health-wise, I can't comment on, because
it's just not a conversation we've ever head.
Since I had never been to your region before, I honestly wanted to
know what sort of sheep operations were in & around the area.
(Just the same as my honest, "I asked because I don't know & want
to find out!" question sheep who've never seen BC's in another
post.)


You know, there are a whole lot of us out there fighting for this breed,
who love it and are mystified by it and find it amazing and don't want it
to change. We're not a bunch of dummies. I cut my teeth in the dog
world here, on these newsgroups, so I went in as skeptical as any of
you. I am an empiricist. Data convinces me. When I say that this is an
amazing breed and that there are a lot of really great dogs out there,
dogs who are temperamentally and physically sound, and when I say I
think I'll have a very hard time finding a good pup from a responsible
breeder when the time comes,


Okay...here is something. YOU think you'll have an easy time finding
a good puppy. Just like I know that *I* won't have a tough time finding
my next Belgian. You, like me, know people IN the breed. Know
where to look and where not to look. But, I'd venture to say it's not
always that way for someone not already involved in the breed--no
matter how experienced they are.
And I do say it, because I have a friend who's been in Belgians for a long
time, breeds, handles her own dogs in conformation, trains and competes
in both agility and herding with if not all, most of her dogs that is
currently
looking into another breed for her son. In that other breed, she literally
knows but a small handful of people. She is starting at the bottom, so
to speak. Yes, she's got clout, definitely, but she's finding out that
she still has to go through all of the games to find the real honest
answers to stuff she wants to know.

I'm not lying and I'm not making **** up.
YOU GUYS taught me how to evaluate breeders and dogs. I started reading
these groups before I got Harley. (These groups are how I got Harley.)
Read this again: I'm not making this **** up!


I never thought that you were. But, you are seeing things from "inside"
the BC circle, which isn't where Debbie, or anyone else that isn't
involved in BCs. And, yes, I'm sure that as much as anyone, you
worked very hard to learn about the breed & people involved in it
to be there. BC's are a common breed out here. "Farm dogs" like
BCs, Aussies & ACDs are a dime a dozen in the Pac. NW. That
new Cowboy phase that hit several years ago, when nearly every
guy in the small towns drove around town in a huge Dodge pick-up
truck and at least one of those 3 breeds in the back, left a pretty
good population explosion within a few years time. That's
not to say that East Coast isn't overrun w/ BCs & the like in shelters,
because I know they've got their share. I guess my point is,
that there are just way more crappy ones than good ones. BUT,
I'm not involved in the breed--so I only see it from the outside.
..
I'm sad not only because some people will never understand why working a
real Border Collie on stock is so magical, but also because they don't
even care to try.


And, if it matters at all, I *do* happen to care. This is coming from
someone that is new to the sport, but it's already taken such a hold
on my own life that it's something I'd rather do than just about anything
else. To try & explain *why* I enjoy going herding with Bodhi to someone
that's never gone is almost pointless. Unless you've been there, and
seen it, and felt the way you do when that "lightbulb" just goes on, or
when they start flanking the way they should (instead of circling all of the
time!), or when they do their first "stop" or walk-up, they won't
understand.
shrug
Shelly & The Boys


  #8  
Old August 31st 03, 06:35 PM
Shelly & The Boys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Debbie S" wrote in message
...

From:

This is coming from someone that is new to the sport, but it's
already taken such a hold on my own life that it's something I'd rather
do than just about anything else. To try & explain *why* I enjoy
going herding with Bodhi to someone that's never gone is almost
pointless.

:I think 'sport' is the key word. I"ve not done sport herding, but I
:have used dogs on stock... all kinds of stock various times in my life.
:shrug They worked the stock like they were supposed to, it was an
:utilitarian thing. I don't have livestock, unless you count the 60 some
:bunnies we're about to go butcher for the dogs.

laugh No, the bunnies don't count! I know how your dogs would
keep them all together! And yes, I suppose it *is* utilitarian. I've
been involved in that side of it a time or two as well (John's family
own a cattle ranch in Eastern, OR). *That* side of it is work, not
a sport. That part of it was dirty, hot & while fun & educational for
me, it wasn't exactly what *I'd* call fun. Using dogs & horses to
bring the cattle down from the grazing pastures to be branded.

:I most certainly _do understand the 'magical' part. I find magic when I
:run Tazzie on a difficult course, and we nail it in perfect
:synchronization, at break-neck speed. Gives me goosebumps, and it's an
:amazing thrill. Or drug. G And unless you've trained and run a dog
:at that level, with that kind of speed, there's no way to understand
:_that, either.

That's exactly it. Everyone gets their trip one way or another. And,
while I don't give a care *WHY* you want a BC (evil, evil you! laugh),
I *do* see Melanie's point. They are a herding dog, don't let that
go to the side of the road, so to speak. Especially when maybe by
that time, I'd be more than happy to take your dog herding...hehehe...
I have to laugh at an advertisement they (Bodhi's breeders) did
for his dam in the Canine Chronicle. I can't remember the exact
ad, but it said something about having the conformation, heart &
mind that a Belgian needs for herding. Yet, they left off her herding
titles. Granted, she's "only" in Started, but still...don't just SAY
they can do it, PROVE it (even if it is in a venue that not everyone
agrees is the best showcase for many breeds' herding talents).


:I'm going to purchase a Malinois pup or a BC pup in a couple of years or
:so. We won't need sheep to find our 'magic', as it's available in other
:sports, too.

I don't doubt that at all. And, from what I've seen, a good many
people (at least in Belgians) don't just do one or the other. If they
are involved in performance, they do several different venues (obed.,
agility, herding, flyball...whatever).
Shelly & The Boys


  #9  
Old August 31st 03, 06:35 PM
Shelly & The Boys
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Debbie S" wrote in message
...

From:

This is coming from someone that is new to the sport, but it's
already taken such a hold on my own life that it's something I'd rather
do than just about anything else. To try & explain *why* I enjoy
going herding with Bodhi to someone that's never gone is almost
pointless.

:I think 'sport' is the key word. I"ve not done sport herding, but I
:have used dogs on stock... all kinds of stock various times in my life.
:shrug They worked the stock like they were supposed to, it was an
:utilitarian thing. I don't have livestock, unless you count the 60 some
:bunnies we're about to go butcher for the dogs.

laugh No, the bunnies don't count! I know how your dogs would
keep them all together! And yes, I suppose it *is* utilitarian. I've
been involved in that side of it a time or two as well (John's family
own a cattle ranch in Eastern, OR). *That* side of it is work, not
a sport. That part of it was dirty, hot & while fun & educational for
me, it wasn't exactly what *I'd* call fun. Using dogs & horses to
bring the cattle down from the grazing pastures to be branded.

:I most certainly _do understand the 'magical' part. I find magic when I
:run Tazzie on a difficult course, and we nail it in perfect
:synchronization, at break-neck speed. Gives me goosebumps, and it's an
:amazing thrill. Or drug. G And unless you've trained and run a dog
:at that level, with that kind of speed, there's no way to understand
:_that, either.

That's exactly it. Everyone gets their trip one way or another. And,
while I don't give a care *WHY* you want a BC (evil, evil you! laugh),
I *do* see Melanie's point. They are a herding dog, don't let that
go to the side of the road, so to speak. Especially when maybe by
that time, I'd be more than happy to take your dog herding...hehehe...
I have to laugh at an advertisement they (Bodhi's breeders) did
for his dam in the Canine Chronicle. I can't remember the exact
ad, but it said something about having the conformation, heart &
mind that a Belgian needs for herding. Yet, they left off her herding
titles. Granted, she's "only" in Started, but still...don't just SAY
they can do it, PROVE it (even if it is in a venue that not everyone
agrees is the best showcase for many breeds' herding talents).


:I'm going to purchase a Malinois pup or a BC pup in a couple of years or
:so. We won't need sheep to find our 'magic', as it's available in other
:sports, too.

I don't doubt that at all. And, from what I've seen, a good many
people (at least in Belgians) don't just do one or the other. If they
are involved in performance, they do several different venues (obed.,
agility, herding, flyball...whatever).
Shelly & The Boys


 




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