From:

=A0 I have a few guesses, and do have a name for you to talk with, if
you're interested.

Sure. I don't have anyone on the west coast that I'm interested in...
yet.

Not a black dog (I know, no worries there!), but only because I'd
never, ever want to have to worry about competing against you for breed
rankings!

Aw Shelly, where's your competitive spirit, girl?

Even though they are in the herding group, the Belgians were
herding/tending dogs yes, but they were all-purpose farm dogs, milk cart
haulers and protection dogs.

And they may be a better fit for me because of that, I dunno. shrug
I work Tazzie, and think I'm going to have a BC. I'm around Skillet and
Ace, and think it's Malinois for me! Good thing I"m pondering early in
the game. I _am considering fostering for BC rescue on a very limited
basis. Like one dog at a time. That might help me decide.

Debbie

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...


And they may be a better fit for me because of that, I dunno. shrug
I work Tazzie, and think I'm going to have a BC. I'm around Skillet and
Ace, and think it's Malinois for me! Good thing I"m pondering early in
the game. I _am considering fostering for BC rescue on a very limited
basis. Like one dog at a time. That might help me decide.

********
I love seeing a good Mal. I've happened to be in St. Louis in conjunction
with both the Belgian Sheepdog National and the Malanois National. Overall,
I was far more impressed with the Mals (sorry Shelly). But that could be
because I didn't meet a single Sheepdog that I would have in my house--to a
one, pets and conformation dogs, they were spooky and
overreactive/suspicious. And I really didn't see but one or two with
anything resembling drive.

In the Mals, in contrast, I saw some truly lovely dogs. Some of them too
were overreactive for my taste, but those were the exception rather than the
rule. And quite a few of them were just flat impressive on the course. There
was one huge male that just blew me away.

However, if you're looking to be truly competitive, you better go with a
little Mal or just get the BC. As I'm sure you know from your GSD, heavier
dogs are at a fairly significant disadvantage in agility. Any dog that
matures out at 60 pounds and over is going to get more wear and tear than
those 35-40 pound dogs that are their same height. Viva is only 24.5" tall
and compact, but she's got heavy bone. She also has, at age 6, the start
of arthritis in her front feet. Now part of that is because she's missing a
tendon in one (long story), but still. She's a beautiful natural jumper with
loads of drive, she doesn't know the meaning of the word quit, and the
resultant wear and tear on her body is not insignificant.

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...


And they may be a better fit for me because of that, I dunno. shrug
I work Tazzie, and think I'm going to have a BC. I'm around Skillet and
Ace, and think it's Malinois for me! Good thing I"m pondering early in
the game. I _am considering fostering for BC rescue on a very limited
basis. Like one dog at a time. That might help me decide.

********
I love seeing a good Mal. I've happened to be in St. Louis in conjunction
with both the Belgian Sheepdog National and the Malanois National. Overall,
I was far more impressed with the Mals (sorry Shelly). But that could be
because I didn't meet a single Sheepdog that I would have in my house--to a
one, pets and conformation dogs, they were spooky and
overreactive/suspicious. And I really didn't see but one or two with
anything resembling drive.

In the Mals, in contrast, I saw some truly lovely dogs. Some of them too
were overreactive for my taste, but those were the exception rather than the
rule. And quite a few of them were just flat impressive on the course. There
was one huge male that just blew me away.

However, if you're looking to be truly competitive, you better go with a
little Mal or just get the BC. As I'm sure you know from your GSD, heavier
dogs are at a fairly significant disadvantage in agility. Any dog that
matures out at 60 pounds and over is going to get more wear and tear than
those 35-40 pound dogs that are their same height. Viva is only 24.5" tall
and compact, but she's got heavy bone. She also has, at age 6, the start
of arthritis in her front feet. Now part of that is because she's missing a
tendon in one (long story), but still. She's a beautiful natural jumper with
loads of drive, she doesn't know the meaning of the word quit, and the
resultant wear and tear on her body is not insignificant.

"Shelly & The Boys" wrote in message
...


And I think a lot of it depends on what you're used to as well.
I read & heard that Belgians were highly reactive dogs. But,
had no idea until I began living with one! I can easily say that
most of the Dobies I've met have been suspicious, obsessive
barking dogs, and big "babies", but I know that there are a whole lot more
out there than just the specimens that I've met. :-)

Oh they can be--we have our share of temperament problems in dobes, but
we're working hard on it. Viva is actually a dog who came to me with a lot
of suspicion. She'll now fall sound asleep in the middle of of a busy path
at an agility trial. I wake her up to go run, and by the time she's at the
line she's in overdrive. Generally, I'd say that Dobes are less reactive and
spooky than Sheepdogs, certainly the sheepdogs I've seen.

Yes, there are a lot
of spooky, weird ones (Groens) out there that I'd have nothing to do with.
It's definitely an issue of contention w/in the breed and amongst
the breeders. That, I believe was the year Bodhi's sire went BIS.
(At Purina Farms?)

Yep. Part of that 4-day agility trial a couple of years ago. And I did meet
one or two nice ones. Now that I remember, a very nice guy I met had one
with a good deal of drive. That was when I was starting Viva--and she swiped
all the blues from the Novice 24" class, shutting out the sheepdogs. Oops.

Since then, someone else has started handling one of the spooky pups,
and has since "turned her around", due to the fact that she just
won't put up with (or put up in the show ring) a pup that is freaky, and
finished her a few weeks ago. Judges put them up, people make
excuses for bad behavior, it sucks, but it happens in all breeds. But,
there are breeders out there trying to make a difference, yet still
preserve the desired aloofness that should be part of the breed.

Dobes shouldn't be everybody's best friend out of the box. But they should
be extremely stable. Bombproof. Not overreactive. NOT spooky.

I looked at Mals when I first became interested in the breed. I will
admit, most of the ones I met, while they had stable temperaments,
they were too much drivey for me! I know myself, and what I can
and cannot handle (and my tolerance level is WAY higher than that
of my husband's, whose likes & dislikes I also had to consider!).
For us, Bodhi is perfect. For Debbie, and you I highly suspect,
he would be nowhere near drivey enough.

Exactly. I want as much drive as I can get, and of the Belgian triumverate,
I'd rate them Mals, Tervs, Sheepdogs, in order of my preference. The mals
seem to be the "sanest" to me.

"Shelly & The Boys" wrote in message
...


And I think a lot of it depends on what you're used to as well.
I read & heard that Belgians were highly reactive dogs. But,
had no idea until I began living with one! I can easily say that
most of the Dobies I've met have been suspicious, obsessive
barking dogs, and big "babies", but I know that there are a whole lot more
out there than just the specimens that I've met. :-)

Oh they can be--we have our share of temperament problems in dobes, but
we're working hard on it. Viva is actually a dog who came to me with a lot
of suspicion. She'll now fall sound asleep in the middle of of a busy path
at an agility trial. I wake her up to go run, and by the time she's at the
line she's in overdrive. Generally, I'd say that Dobes are less reactive and
spooky than Sheepdogs, certainly the sheepdogs I've seen.

Yes, there are a lot
of spooky, weird ones (Groens) out there that I'd have nothing to do with.
It's definitely an issue of contention w/in the breed and amongst
the breeders. That, I believe was the year Bodhi's sire went BIS.
(At Purina Farms?)

Yep. Part of that 4-day agility trial a couple of years ago. And I did meet
one or two nice ones. Now that I remember, a very nice guy I met had one
with a good deal of drive. That was when I was starting Viva--and she swiped
all the blues from the Novice 24" class, shutting out the sheepdogs. Oops.

Since then, someone else has started handling one of the spooky pups,
and has since "turned her around", due to the fact that she just
won't put up with (or put up in the show ring) a pup that is freaky, and
finished her a few weeks ago. Judges put them up, people make
excuses for bad behavior, it sucks, but it happens in all breeds. But,
there are breeders out there trying to make a difference, yet still
preserve the desired aloofness that should be part of the breed.

Dobes shouldn't be everybody's best friend out of the box. But they should
be extremely stable. Bombproof. Not overreactive. NOT spooky.

I looked at Mals when I first became interested in the breed. I will
admit, most of the ones I met, while they had stable temperaments,
they were too much drivey for me! I know myself, and what I can
and cannot handle (and my tolerance level is WAY higher than that
of my husband's, whose likes & dislikes I also had to consider!).
For us, Bodhi is perfect. For Debbie, and you I highly suspect,
he would be nowhere near drivey enough.

Exactly. I want as much drive as I can get, and of the Belgian triumverate,
I'd rate them Mals, Tervs, Sheepdogs, in order of my preference. The mals
seem to be the "sanest" to me.

From: (Robin=A0Nuttall)
But that could be because I didn't meet a single Sheepdog that I would
have in my house--to a one, pets and conformation dogs, they were spooky
and overreactive/suspicious.

I've known one Sheepdog, Bodhi, and I don't know him well. But from
what I"ve seen, he's a calm dog who appears to intelligently consider
his environment.

And quite a few of them were just flat impressive on the course.

They're amazing when they're good. I really, really like them.

However, if you're looking to be truly competitive, you better go with
a little Mal or just get the BC.

I'm looking at the little french line dogs. I've talked with someone
who runs a great little Malinois that has done well in national events,
and we've discussed having a particular 'name' import a french line
bitch in whelp for us, with the bitch whelping at my house. I'd rather
pick my pup from a litter and walk away, G. but it's an option.

As I'm sure you know from your GSD, heavier dogs are at a fairly
significant disadvantage in agility.

It's pounded into my head every time I run the ASTs. Kira handles the
work much easier than they do, even though she's bigger and heavier.

Debbie

From: (Robin=A0Nuttall)
But that could be because I didn't meet a single Sheepdog that I would
have in my house--to a one, pets and conformation dogs, they were spooky
and overreactive/suspicious.

I've known one Sheepdog, Bodhi, and I don't know him well. But from
what I"ve seen, he's a calm dog who appears to intelligently consider
his environment.

And quite a few of them were just flat impressive on the course.

They're amazing when they're good. I really, really like them.

However, if you're looking to be truly competitive, you better go with
a little Mal or just get the BC.

I'm looking at the little french line dogs. I've talked with someone
who runs a great little Malinois that has done well in national events,
and we've discussed having a particular 'name' import a french line
bitch in whelp for us, with the bitch whelping at my house. I'd rather
pick my pup from a litter and walk away, G. but it's an option.

As I'm sure you know from your GSD, heavier dogs are at a fairly
significant disadvantage in agility.

It's pounded into my head every time I run the ASTs. Kira handles the
work much easier than they do, even though she's bigger and heavier.

Debbie

"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:2kJ4b.325388$uu5.65981@sccrnsc04...

"Shelly & The Boys" wrote in message
...


And I think a lot of it depends on what you're used to as well.
I read & heard that Belgians were highly reactive dogs. But,
had no idea until I began living with one!
snipped

Generally, I'd say that Dobes are less reactive and
spooky than Sheepdogs, certainly the sheepdogs I've seen.

Okay...not to get nitpicky here, but I don't lump reactivity and
spookiness together. Belgians *should* be reactive, it's
not a bad thing. Possibly that's not what you're implying,
and maybe it's just the way I'm interpreting it. You can get reactivity
without spookiness, maybe it's all about recovery? I don't know. You can
have a dog that will do a head jerk toward someone walking
their way, but then they either investigate for petting, or ignore.
This is a correct behavior for a Belgian, even though it may not
be for a Dobie.
On the other end of the spectrum, you can have a dog that
does that same head-jerk reaction, then either lunges out
to bark/bite, or completely shies away. Not good.

Exactly. I want as much drive as I can get, and of the Belgian
triumverate,
I'd rate them Mals, Tervs, Sheepdogs, in order of my preference. The mals
seem to be the "sanest" to me.

I don't know. I've seen freaky in all three, and my own experience
has been that I've met way more correct temperamented Groens
and Tervs than Mals (with exception of the breeders I sought out).
But, I also believe a lot of that has to do with WHOSE dogs I've
met, and that fact that most of them have been at performance
events moreso than strictly conformation events. Well, that and
the fact that 1)many Groens I've met have been out of similar lines,
and 2) I've just met many more Groens! :-) I can't include rescue
specimens, simply because that is one area where the Mals outnumber
the Tervs & Groens in amass. Can you blame it on poor home
screening, on "rotten temperaments", on the fact that there are
just way more of them around, on a combination of all three combined? Who
knows. shrug
Shelly & The Boys

"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:2kJ4b.325388$uu5.65981@sccrnsc04...

"Shelly & The Boys" wrote in message
...


And I think a lot of it depends on what you're used to as well.
I read & heard that Belgians were highly reactive dogs. But,
had no idea until I began living with one!
snipped

Generally, I'd say that Dobes are less reactive and
spooky than Sheepdogs, certainly the sheepdogs I've seen.

Okay...not to get nitpicky here, but I don't lump reactivity and
spookiness together. Belgians *should* be reactive, it's
not a bad thing. Possibly that's not what you're implying,
and maybe it's just the way I'm interpreting it. You can get reactivity
without spookiness, maybe it's all about recovery? I don't know. You can
have a dog that will do a head jerk toward someone walking
their way, but then they either investigate for petting, or ignore.
This is a correct behavior for a Belgian, even though it may not
be for a Dobie.
On the other end of the spectrum, you can have a dog that
does that same head-jerk reaction, then either lunges out
to bark/bite, or completely shies away. Not good.

Exactly. I want as much drive as I can get, and of the Belgian
triumverate,
I'd rate them Mals, Tervs, Sheepdogs, in order of my preference. The mals
seem to be the "sanest" to me.

I don't know. I've seen freaky in all three, and my own experience
has been that I've met way more correct temperamented Groens
and Tervs than Mals (with exception of the breeders I sought out).
But, I also believe a lot of that has to do with WHOSE dogs I've
met, and that fact that most of them have been at performance
events moreso than strictly conformation events. Well, that and
the fact that 1)many Groens I've met have been out of similar lines,
and 2) I've just met many more Groens! :-) I can't include rescue
specimens, simply because that is one area where the Mals outnumber
the Tervs & Groens in amass. Can you blame it on poor home
screening, on "rotten temperaments", on the fact that there are
just way more of them around, on a combination of all three combined? Who
knows. shrug
Shelly & The Boys

"Shelly & The Boys" wrote in message
...

"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message


Generally, I'd say that Dobes are less reactive and
spooky than Sheepdogs, certainly the sheepdogs I've seen.

Okay...not to get nitpicky here, but I don't lump reactivity and
spookiness together. Belgians *should* be reactive, it's
not a bad thing. Possibly that's not what you're implying,
and maybe it's just the way I'm interpreting it. You can get reactivity
without spookiness, maybe it's all about recovery? I don't know. You
can
have a dog that will do a head jerk toward someone walking
their way, but then they either investigate for petting, or ignore.

We wouldn't necessarily want a startle reaction in the first place. A "head
jerk" to me sounds like a startle. Dobermans shouldn't startle. Certainly
they should be aware of their environment, but not in a reactive way--in a
calm way. So yes, they should notice that person, and they should look at
that person, but not in an edgy manner. I saw a lot of edgy in the Belgians
that were there that week. LOTS of growling, hackling, and overall
jumpiness. What you might call skittish in a horse.

This is a correct behavior for a Belgian, even though it may not
be for a Dobie.

Good point. It's certainly not in a dobe, it's the opposite of correct,
which may be why I find it so distasteful.


I don't know. I've seen freaky in all three, and my own experience
has been that I've met way more correct temperamented Groens
and Tervs than Mals (with exception of the breeders I sought out).
But, I also believe a lot of that has to do with WHOSE dogs I've
met, and that fact that most of them have been at performance
events moreso than strictly conformation events.

I've known both conformation and working Tervs--quite a few actually, and
more Tervs personally (as in, trained with them, saw them over time) than
any of the others. Most have been okay but again a bit too reactive for my
taste. There's a guy in St. Louis with a lovely Terv who just got his MACH
this year, and he'll be the first to tell you that Chance has a hard time
trialling indoors because he doesn't like enclosed spaces. I want a dog who
doesn't *care* where he is as long as he gets to play the game.


Well, that and
the fact that 1)many Groens I've met have been out of similar lines,
and 2) I've just met many more Groens! :-) I can't include rescue
specimens, simply because that is one area where the Mals outnumber
the Tervs & Groens in amass. Can you blame it on poor home
screening, on "rotten temperaments", on the fact that there are
just way more of them around, on a combination of all three combined? Who
knows. shrug

Now I do hear of some Mals bred for sportwork that are basically alligators
with fur--again victims of the "breed for one thing" mentality, in this case
Ring. But then you look at dogs coming from someone like Ivan Balabanov.
I've never seen his dogs work, but they certainly sound impressive and I've
heard that they have extremely stable temperaments. I want drive PLUS
stable. Not reactive.