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I Got Bitten Today
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On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Debbie S whittled these words:
From: A Border Collie that can't herd is a "Border Collie" to exactly the same degree that the "Amercian Show Shepherd" is a German Shepherd Dog. Call it a "Sport Collie" and Melanie has no problem with it. There's a huge difference between the BC situation and the GSD situation. There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively don't care about. Many non-dog people can tell the difference between an American Show Shepherd and a working line GSD just by watching them. Show shepherds have lost the drive, the aptitudes, the nerve, the work ethic, and the working structure, except for rare individuals. A goodly number of educated dog people can't tell a Border Collie from an Australian Shepherd so the same criteria can't apply. That includes people experienced in the respective breeds. There are individuals that are clearly and obviously different, but there is an overlapping subset that are not so obvious. Put them on sheep, however, and their true heritage shows through. Border Collies aren't defined by their physical type to the same extent the GSD is. What can get your dog registered "on Merit" as a Border Collie is only one thing - herding like a Border Collie. Not just herding, not one aspect or another, but being successful at Border Collie trials doing the work of the Border Collie. {And to say that sport collies have lost the aptitude for herding, so aren't border collies, alludes that they're one dimensional dogs. I don't believe that for a second.} Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me. Experienced, knowledgeable dog folk can't tell the difference between a good sport Border Collie and a herding bred border collie if you remove the sheep. Personally, I think that Melanie's 'magic' and her definition of border collie 'esssence' is found more in BC lore and sport herding circles than it is in the dogs. No more so than the protective qualities you value in the GSD. You are dismissive of Schutzhund because you don't believe it tests for the true essense of the GSD. AKC herding trials are the same. They fail to test for the type of herding that is the essence of the Border Collie. What is important to her, and her peers, is not discernible without the use of sheep. True. The manner of working sheep is what defines the Border Collie as a breed. Which is why you can get a register of merit regardless of your dog's pedigree if you show your dog works sheep as do the top performing Border Collies. I'd be willing, if I were closer to her, to bet that I could line up 10 BC's, work them all in agility, and she couldn't tell me which were sport _herding bred, and which were _sport bred. If you can't tell the difference without using sheep, just how 'different' are they? About the same degree of difference as your American Show Shepherd and your working lines GSD. I'm not saying *qualitatively* the differences are the same, but conceptually they are. The Border Collie may have the physical structure, biddability etc that makes for a good agility dog, but what makes it a Border Collie is herding. If it can't herd it might be a terrific sport dog, but it isn't a Border Collie. Should livestock become extinct so will the Border Collie. The dog that bears the name will be a different breed. I still maintain that the sport people won't hurt herding border collies a bit, unless herding folks start using the sport dogs in their breeding programs without testing. If you breed without testing for a quality you will lose it. The dog you want isn't a Border Collie, but a "sport collie". Just as the American Show Shepherd is omitting qualities that define what a GSD is, so the sport collie bred without regard to BC style herding omits the essential characteristic of the breed. And I don't care if they change the name... it's the dog I want, not the history. Call a good working line GSD anything you like, as long as I can get one. :-) I don't much care what happens to American Show Shepherds. But when I refer to them as 'American Show Shepherds' I think pretty much everyone knows what I'm talking about. Of course you don't care. The Border Collie as a breed is of no interest to you at all. You want an agility dog NOT a "Border Collie" A very similar argument is used by the game bred pit bull folks. I don't buy into their arguments, either. I don't need to fight my ASTs to determine their heart, and I don't need to herd a border collie to know if it has qualities relevant to my needs. I think it's grand that some people are keeping border collies true to their roots, and continuing the herding tradition. But the dogs aren't one-dimensional. Well the "game bred" put bull people are right in the sense that if you aren't testing for it you will lose it. Now I don't blame you at all for being perfectly willing to lose what makes a "game bred" pit bull what it is. There are other qualities you value in the breed and that are testable within the parameters of what you want. Your non-game bred AST IS going to be qualitatively different, its just a difference you want rather than one you abhor. Diane Blackman |
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On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Debbie S whittled these words:
From: A Border Collie that can't herd is a "Border Collie" to exactly the same degree that the "Amercian Show Shepherd" is a German Shepherd Dog. Call it a "Sport Collie" and Melanie has no problem with it. There's a huge difference between the BC situation and the GSD situation. There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively don't care about. Many non-dog people can tell the difference between an American Show Shepherd and a working line GSD just by watching them. Show shepherds have lost the drive, the aptitudes, the nerve, the work ethic, and the working structure, except for rare individuals. A goodly number of educated dog people can't tell a Border Collie from an Australian Shepherd so the same criteria can't apply. That includes people experienced in the respective breeds. There are individuals that are clearly and obviously different, but there is an overlapping subset that are not so obvious. Put them on sheep, however, and their true heritage shows through. Border Collies aren't defined by their physical type to the same extent the GSD is. What can get your dog registered "on Merit" as a Border Collie is only one thing - herding like a Border Collie. Not just herding, not one aspect or another, but being successful at Border Collie trials doing the work of the Border Collie. {And to say that sport collies have lost the aptitude for herding, so aren't border collies, alludes that they're one dimensional dogs. I don't believe that for a second.} Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me. Experienced, knowledgeable dog folk can't tell the difference between a good sport Border Collie and a herding bred border collie if you remove the sheep. Personally, I think that Melanie's 'magic' and her definition of border collie 'esssence' is found more in BC lore and sport herding circles than it is in the dogs. No more so than the protective qualities you value in the GSD. You are dismissive of Schutzhund because you don't believe it tests for the true essense of the GSD. AKC herding trials are the same. They fail to test for the type of herding that is the essence of the Border Collie. What is important to her, and her peers, is not discernible without the use of sheep. True. The manner of working sheep is what defines the Border Collie as a breed. Which is why you can get a register of merit regardless of your dog's pedigree if you show your dog works sheep as do the top performing Border Collies. I'd be willing, if I were closer to her, to bet that I could line up 10 BC's, work them all in agility, and she couldn't tell me which were sport _herding bred, and which were _sport bred. If you can't tell the difference without using sheep, just how 'different' are they? About the same degree of difference as your American Show Shepherd and your working lines GSD. I'm not saying *qualitatively* the differences are the same, but conceptually they are. The Border Collie may have the physical structure, biddability etc that makes for a good agility dog, but what makes it a Border Collie is herding. If it can't herd it might be a terrific sport dog, but it isn't a Border Collie. Should livestock become extinct so will the Border Collie. The dog that bears the name will be a different breed. I still maintain that the sport people won't hurt herding border collies a bit, unless herding folks start using the sport dogs in their breeding programs without testing. If you breed without testing for a quality you will lose it. The dog you want isn't a Border Collie, but a "sport collie". Just as the American Show Shepherd is omitting qualities that define what a GSD is, so the sport collie bred without regard to BC style herding omits the essential characteristic of the breed. And I don't care if they change the name... it's the dog I want, not the history. Call a good working line GSD anything you like, as long as I can get one. :-) I don't much care what happens to American Show Shepherds. But when I refer to them as 'American Show Shepherds' I think pretty much everyone knows what I'm talking about. Of course you don't care. The Border Collie as a breed is of no interest to you at all. You want an agility dog NOT a "Border Collie" A very similar argument is used by the game bred pit bull folks. I don't buy into their arguments, either. I don't need to fight my ASTs to determine their heart, and I don't need to herd a border collie to know if it has qualities relevant to my needs. I think it's grand that some people are keeping border collies true to their roots, and continuing the herding tradition. But the dogs aren't one-dimensional. Well the "game bred" put bull people are right in the sense that if you aren't testing for it you will lose it. Now I don't blame you at all for being perfectly willing to lose what makes a "game bred" pit bull what it is. There are other qualities you value in the breed and that are testable within the parameters of what you want. Your non-game bred AST IS going to be qualitatively different, its just a difference you want rather than one you abhor. Diane Blackman |
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wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Debbie S whittled these words: From: A Border Collie that can't herd is a "Border Collie" to exactly the same degree that the "Amercian Show Shepherd" is a German Shepherd Dog. Call it a "Sport Collie" and Melanie has no problem with it. There's a huge difference between the BC situation and the GSD situation. There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively don't care about. The difference is that I believe the "American Show Shepherd" to be UNHEALTHY. I believe that a "sport collie" could be responsibly bred. Yes, I absolutely value the health of dogs. I value it far more than ability to herd. I think to dismiss health as the merely my preference over herding ability a bit odd. Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me. Does it disgust you as much as a dog that has to be put down due to bad hips at age 8 because of bad breeding for the conformation ring? |
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wrote in message ... On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Debbie S whittled these words: From: A Border Collie that can't herd is a "Border Collie" to exactly the same degree that the "Amercian Show Shepherd" is a German Shepherd Dog. Call it a "Sport Collie" and Melanie has no problem with it. There's a huge difference between the BC situation and the GSD situation. There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively don't care about. The difference is that I believe the "American Show Shepherd" to be UNHEALTHY. I believe that a "sport collie" could be responsibly bred. Yes, I absolutely value the health of dogs. I value it far more than ability to herd. I think to dismiss health as the merely my preference over herding ability a bit odd. Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me. Does it disgust you as much as a dog that has to be put down due to bad hips at age 8 because of bad breeding for the conformation ring? |
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On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:12:45 -0800 Child whittled these words:
wrote in message ... There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively don't care about. The difference is that I believe the "American Show Shepherd" to be UNHEALTHY. I believe that a "sport collie" could be responsibly bred. I suspect that the difference betwen an American Show Shepherd and a GSD is more than just the difference between healthy and unhealthy. Based on the arguments made it involves a significant lack of drive, natural protection and other qualities essential to what makes the GSD a GSD. Yes, I absolutely value the health of dogs. I value it far more than ability to herd. I think to dismiss health as the merely my preference over herding ability a bit odd. I don't make that dismissal. Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me. Does it disgust you as much as a dog that has to be put down due to bad hips at age 8 because of bad breeding for the conformation ring? Nope. Of course not. I'm not arguing health tested vs non-health tested, that's a different discussion. I'm talking about these essential characteristics that makes a breed. A GSD that is perfectly physically sound, but who runs behind its person at the first sign of trouble is NOT what a GSD should be. And getting such a dog and saying "yeah but its healthy" doesn't make it any more a GSD. We are talking about what makes a breed what it is. Obviously good health is important. But if you don't have consistent breed characeristics you don't have a breed. And when a breed significantly splits in characteristic they need a new lable to help people predict the reasonable expectations. A field labrador retriever is not the same breed as a show labrador retriever. That extra modifier is important. |
#7
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On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:12:45 -0800 Child whittled these words:
wrote in message ... There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively don't care about. The difference is that I believe the "American Show Shepherd" to be UNHEALTHY. I believe that a "sport collie" could be responsibly bred. I suspect that the difference betwen an American Show Shepherd and a GSD is more than just the difference between healthy and unhealthy. Based on the arguments made it involves a significant lack of drive, natural protection and other qualities essential to what makes the GSD a GSD. Yes, I absolutely value the health of dogs. I value it far more than ability to herd. I think to dismiss health as the merely my preference over herding ability a bit odd. I don't make that dismissal. Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me. Does it disgust you as much as a dog that has to be put down due to bad hips at age 8 because of bad breeding for the conformation ring? Nope. Of course not. I'm not arguing health tested vs non-health tested, that's a different discussion. I'm talking about these essential characteristics that makes a breed. A GSD that is perfectly physically sound, but who runs behind its person at the first sign of trouble is NOT what a GSD should be. And getting such a dog and saying "yeah but its healthy" doesn't make it any more a GSD. We are talking about what makes a breed what it is. Obviously good health is important. But if you don't have consistent breed characeristics you don't have a breed. And when a breed significantly splits in characteristic they need a new lable to help people predict the reasonable expectations. A field labrador retriever is not the same breed as a show labrador retriever. That extra modifier is important. |
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