A dog & canine forum. DogBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DogBanter forum » Dog forums » Dog behavior
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

I Got Bitten Today



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 2nd 03, 10:42 PM
Debbie S
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default I Got Bitten Today


From:

A Border Collie that can't herd is a "Border Collie" to exactly the
same degree that the "Amercian Show Shepherd" is a German Shepherd Dog.
Call it a "Sport Collie" and Melanie has no problem with it.

There's a huge difference between the BC situation and the GSD
situation. Many non-dog people can tell the difference between an
American Show Shepherd and a working line GSD just by watching them.
Show shepherds have lost the drive, the aptitudes, the nerve, the work
ethic, and the working structure, except for rare individuals. {And to
say that sport collies have lost the aptitude for herding, so aren't
border collies, alludes that they're one dimensional dogs. I don't
believe that for a second.} Experienced, knowledgeable dog folk can't
tell the difference between a good sport Border Collie and a herding
bred border collie if you remove the sheep. Personally, I think that
Melanie's 'magic' and her definition of border collie 'esssence' is
found more in BC lore and sport herding circles than it is in the dogs.
What is important to her, and her peers, is not discernible without the
use of sheep. I'd be willing, if I were closer to her, to bet that I
could line up 10 BC's, work them all in agility, and she couldn't tell
me which were sport _herding bred, and which were _sport bred. If you
can't tell the difference without using sheep, just how 'different' are
they? I still maintain that the sport people won't hurt herding border
collies a bit, unless herding folks start using the sport dogs in their
breeding programs without testing. And I don't care if they change the
name... it's the dog I want, not the history. Call a good working line
GSD anything you like, as long as I can get one. :-) I don't much care
what happens to American Show Shepherds. But when I refer to them as
'American Show Shepherds' I think pretty much everyone knows what I'm
talking about.

A very similar argument is used by the game bred pit bull folks. I
don't buy into their arguments, either. I don't need to fight my ASTs
to determine their heart, and I don't need to herd a border collie to
know if it has qualities relevant to my needs. I think it's grand that
some people are keeping border collies true to their roots, and
continuing the herding tradition. But the dogs aren't one-dimensional.

Debbie

  #2  
Old September 4th 03, 07:06 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Debbie S whittled these words:

From:


A Border Collie that can't herd is a "Border Collie" to exactly the
same degree that the "Amercian Show Shepherd" is a German Shepherd Dog.
Call it a "Sport Collie" and Melanie has no problem with it.


There's a huge difference between the BC situation and the GSD
situation.


There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between
the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something
you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the
Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively
don't care about.

Many non-dog people can tell the difference between an
American Show Shepherd and a working line GSD just by watching them.
Show shepherds have lost the drive, the aptitudes, the nerve, the work
ethic, and the working structure, except for rare individuals.


A goodly number of educated dog people can't tell a Border Collie from an
Australian Shepherd so the same criteria can't apply. That includes people
experienced in the respective breeds. There are individuals that are
clearly and obviously different, but there is an overlapping subset that
are not so obvious. Put them on sheep, however, and their true heritage
shows through. Border Collies aren't defined by their physical type to
the same extent the GSD is. What can get your dog registered "on Merit"
as a Border Collie is only one thing - herding like a Border Collie. Not
just herding, not one aspect or another, but being successful at Border
Collie trials doing the work of the Border Collie.

{And to
say that sport collies have lost the aptitude for herding, so aren't
border collies, alludes that they're one dimensional dogs. I don't
believe that for a second.}


Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that
are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me.

Experienced, knowledgeable dog folk can't
tell the difference between a good sport Border Collie and a herding
bred border collie if you remove the sheep. Personally, I think that
Melanie's 'magic' and her definition of border collie 'esssence' is
found more in BC lore and sport herding circles than it is in the dogs.


No more so than the protective qualities you value in the GSD. You are
dismissive of Schutzhund because you don't believe it tests for the true
essense of the GSD. AKC herding trials are the same. They fail to test
for the type of herding that is the essence of the Border Collie.

What is important to her, and her peers, is not discernible without the
use of sheep.


True. The manner of working sheep is what defines the Border Collie as a
breed. Which is why you can get a register of merit regardless of your
dog's pedigree if you show your dog works sheep as do the top performing
Border Collies.

I'd be willing, if I were closer to her, to bet that I
could line up 10 BC's, work them all in agility, and she couldn't tell
me which were sport _herding bred, and which were _sport bred. If you
can't tell the difference without using sheep, just how 'different' are
they?


About the same degree of difference as your American Show Shepherd and
your working lines GSD. I'm not saying *qualitatively* the differences are
the same, but conceptually they are. The Border Collie may have the
physical structure, biddability etc that makes for a good agility dog, but
what makes it a Border Collie is herding. If it can't herd it might be a
terrific sport dog, but it isn't a Border Collie. Should livestock become
extinct so will the Border Collie. The dog that bears the name will be a
different breed.

I still maintain that the sport people won't hurt herding border
collies a bit, unless herding folks start using the sport dogs in their
breeding programs without testing.


If you breed without testing for a quality you will lose it. The dog you
want isn't a Border Collie, but a "sport collie". Just as the American
Show Shepherd is omitting qualities that define what a GSD is, so the
sport collie bred without regard to BC style herding omits the essential
characteristic of the breed.

And I don't care if they change the
name... it's the dog I want, not the history. Call a good working line
GSD anything you like, as long as I can get one. :-) I don't much care
what happens to American Show Shepherds. But when I refer to them as
'American Show Shepherds' I think pretty much everyone knows what I'm
talking about.


Of course you don't care. The Border Collie as a breed is of no interest
to you at all. You want an agility dog NOT a "Border Collie"

A very similar argument is used by the game bred pit bull folks. I
don't buy into their arguments, either. I don't need to fight my ASTs
to determine their heart, and I don't need to herd a border collie to
know if it has qualities relevant to my needs. I think it's grand that
some people are keeping border collies true to their roots, and
continuing the herding tradition. But the dogs aren't one-dimensional.


Well the "game bred" put bull people are right in the sense that if you
aren't testing for it you will lose it. Now I don't blame you at all for
being perfectly willing to lose what makes a "game bred" pit bull what it
is. There are other qualities you value in the breed and that are testable
within the parameters of what you want. Your non-game bred AST IS
going to be qualitatively different, its just a difference you want rather
than one you abhor.

Diane Blackman
  #3  
Old September 4th 03, 07:06 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Debbie S whittled these words:

From:


A Border Collie that can't herd is a "Border Collie" to exactly the
same degree that the "Amercian Show Shepherd" is a German Shepherd Dog.
Call it a "Sport Collie" and Melanie has no problem with it.


There's a huge difference between the BC situation and the GSD
situation.


There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between
the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something
you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the
Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively
don't care about.

Many non-dog people can tell the difference between an
American Show Shepherd and a working line GSD just by watching them.
Show shepherds have lost the drive, the aptitudes, the nerve, the work
ethic, and the working structure, except for rare individuals.


A goodly number of educated dog people can't tell a Border Collie from an
Australian Shepherd so the same criteria can't apply. That includes people
experienced in the respective breeds. There are individuals that are
clearly and obviously different, but there is an overlapping subset that
are not so obvious. Put them on sheep, however, and their true heritage
shows through. Border Collies aren't defined by their physical type to
the same extent the GSD is. What can get your dog registered "on Merit"
as a Border Collie is only one thing - herding like a Border Collie. Not
just herding, not one aspect or another, but being successful at Border
Collie trials doing the work of the Border Collie.

{And to
say that sport collies have lost the aptitude for herding, so aren't
border collies, alludes that they're one dimensional dogs. I don't
believe that for a second.}


Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that
are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me.

Experienced, knowledgeable dog folk can't
tell the difference between a good sport Border Collie and a herding
bred border collie if you remove the sheep. Personally, I think that
Melanie's 'magic' and her definition of border collie 'esssence' is
found more in BC lore and sport herding circles than it is in the dogs.


No more so than the protective qualities you value in the GSD. You are
dismissive of Schutzhund because you don't believe it tests for the true
essense of the GSD. AKC herding trials are the same. They fail to test
for the type of herding that is the essence of the Border Collie.

What is important to her, and her peers, is not discernible without the
use of sheep.


True. The manner of working sheep is what defines the Border Collie as a
breed. Which is why you can get a register of merit regardless of your
dog's pedigree if you show your dog works sheep as do the top performing
Border Collies.

I'd be willing, if I were closer to her, to bet that I
could line up 10 BC's, work them all in agility, and she couldn't tell
me which were sport _herding bred, and which were _sport bred. If you
can't tell the difference without using sheep, just how 'different' are
they?


About the same degree of difference as your American Show Shepherd and
your working lines GSD. I'm not saying *qualitatively* the differences are
the same, but conceptually they are. The Border Collie may have the
physical structure, biddability etc that makes for a good agility dog, but
what makes it a Border Collie is herding. If it can't herd it might be a
terrific sport dog, but it isn't a Border Collie. Should livestock become
extinct so will the Border Collie. The dog that bears the name will be a
different breed.

I still maintain that the sport people won't hurt herding border
collies a bit, unless herding folks start using the sport dogs in their
breeding programs without testing.


If you breed without testing for a quality you will lose it. The dog you
want isn't a Border Collie, but a "sport collie". Just as the American
Show Shepherd is omitting qualities that define what a GSD is, so the
sport collie bred without regard to BC style herding omits the essential
characteristic of the breed.

And I don't care if they change the
name... it's the dog I want, not the history. Call a good working line
GSD anything you like, as long as I can get one. :-) I don't much care
what happens to American Show Shepherds. But when I refer to them as
'American Show Shepherds' I think pretty much everyone knows what I'm
talking about.


Of course you don't care. The Border Collie as a breed is of no interest
to you at all. You want an agility dog NOT a "Border Collie"

A very similar argument is used by the game bred pit bull folks. I
don't buy into their arguments, either. I don't need to fight my ASTs
to determine their heart, and I don't need to herd a border collie to
know if it has qualities relevant to my needs. I think it's grand that
some people are keeping border collies true to their roots, and
continuing the herding tradition. But the dogs aren't one-dimensional.


Well the "game bred" put bull people are right in the sense that if you
aren't testing for it you will lose it. Now I don't blame you at all for
being perfectly willing to lose what makes a "game bred" pit bull what it
is. There are other qualities you value in the breed and that are testable
within the parameters of what you want. Your non-game bred AST IS
going to be qualitatively different, its just a difference you want rather
than one you abhor.

Diane Blackman
  #6  
Old September 4th 03, 08:12 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:12:45 -0800 Child whittled these words:

wrote in message
...


There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between
the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something
you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the
Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively
don't care about.



The difference is that I believe the "American Show Shepherd" to be
UNHEALTHY. I believe that a "sport collie" could be responsibly bred.


I suspect that the difference betwen an American Show Shepherd and a GSD
is more than just the difference between healthy and unhealthy. Based on
the arguments made it involves a significant lack of drive, natural
protection and other qualities essential to what makes the GSD a GSD.

Yes, I absolutely value the health of dogs. I value it far more than
ability to herd. I think to dismiss health as the merely my preference over
herding ability a bit odd.


I don't make that dismissal.

Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that
are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me.


Does it disgust you as much as a dog that has to be put down due to bad hips
at age 8 because of bad breeding for the conformation ring?


Nope. Of course not. I'm not arguing health tested vs non-health tested,
that's a different discussion. I'm talking about these essential
characteristics that makes a breed. A GSD that is perfectly physically
sound, but who runs behind its person at the first sign of trouble is NOT
what a GSD should be. And getting such a dog and saying "yeah but its
healthy" doesn't make it any more a GSD. We are talking about what makes a
breed what it is. Obviously good health is important. But if you don't
have consistent breed characeristics you don't have a breed. And when a
breed significantly splits in characteristic they need a new lable to help
people predict the reasonable expectations. A field labrador retriever is
not the same breed as a show labrador retriever. That extra modifier is
important.






  #7  
Old September 4th 03, 08:12 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:12:45 -0800 Child whittled these words:

wrote in message
...


There might be a "huge" difference to you, because what is missing between
the "Amercian Show Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog" is something
you value and cherish. WHat is missing between the sport collie and the
Border Collie is not only not important to you, but something you actively
don't care about.



The difference is that I believe the "American Show Shepherd" to be
UNHEALTHY. I believe that a "sport collie" could be responsibly bred.


I suspect that the difference betwen an American Show Shepherd and a GSD
is more than just the difference between healthy and unhealthy. Based on
the arguments made it involves a significant lack of drive, natural
protection and other qualities essential to what makes the GSD a GSD.

Yes, I absolutely value the health of dogs. I value it far more than
ability to herd. I think to dismiss health as the merely my preference over
herding ability a bit odd.


I don't make that dismissal.

Not yet, they aren't one dimensional dogs. But I've seen my share that
are indifferent to sheep. That disgusts me.


Does it disgust you as much as a dog that has to be put down due to bad hips
at age 8 because of bad breeding for the conformation ring?


Nope. Of course not. I'm not arguing health tested vs non-health tested,
that's a different discussion. I'm talking about these essential
characteristics that makes a breed. A GSD that is perfectly physically
sound, but who runs behind its person at the first sign of trouble is NOT
what a GSD should be. And getting such a dog and saying "yeah but its
healthy" doesn't make it any more a GSD. We are talking about what makes a
breed what it is. Obviously good health is important. But if you don't
have consistent breed characeristics you don't have a breed. And when a
breed significantly splits in characteristic they need a new lable to help
people predict the reasonable expectations. A field labrador retriever is
not the same breed as a show labrador retriever. That extra modifier is
important.






 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I Got Bitten Today Leah Dog behavior 114 September 9th 03 01:51 PM
I Got Bitten Today Sionnach Dog behavior 4 August 25th 03 02:52 PM
I Got Bitten Today Leah Dog behavior 6 August 25th 03 06:27 AM
I Got Bitten Today Leah Dog behavior 0 August 23rd 03 01:59 PM
I Got Bitten Today Leah Dog behavior 0 August 23rd 03 01:13 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 (Unauthorized Upgrade)
Copyright ©2004-2024 DogBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.