Is my puppy normal? She's a field Golden, nine weeks old. We've had her for
two. I've got two small children.

She tested out middle-of-the-road in temperament tests when we purchased her.
She seemed pretty normal when interacting with her 6 siblings. She exhibited
no aggressive or dominant behavior. She was one of the puppies that didn't
nip.

All that's changed. The nipping is constant. Ankles, feet, fingers, arms - it
never stops. Carry her - nipping. Pet her - nipping. Sit there and mind your
own business - nipping. We've tried "no" commands. We've tried ignoring
her. We've tried diversion. Nothing stops it.

She will defer to nothing, two or four-legged. Two days after we got her, she
mounted her sister, which resulted in some nasty growling and fighting. I've
seen her mount one of her toys. She will not respond to a "no" command - ever.
If given a temperament test today - and I understand that she's much more
confident now - she'd clearly score as a dominant aggressive dog.

Then again, maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm overanalyzing this. Maybe she's
just a spirited puppy. Maybe she needs training. But I know I need advice -
my kids are at stake.

I don't want a dog with agressive charastics in this house, even if they can be
"trained" out. Any experience with any of this? I'm calling the breeder
tomorrow - any opinions this late at night?

me wrote:
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum, and was waiting for an answer to this thread in order
to educate myself. I'm funny like that....


Anyway, In the previous "answer" to the original post, I couldn't
undertstand what the hell the poster was trying to say... Is there some
strange 'inner circle' language in this group that I'm not privy to? Seems
to me like the poster started his "answer" by yelling and screaming about
some group of unknown others and their correction methods, then chastised
the person asking the question for not having read some "miracle manual" on
dog obedience. I'm guessing that he ain't sellin' a product or service, 'cuz
if he was, he'd be livin' on peanut butter with that attitude.

Would still love to hear a clear, professional, and concise answer to the
original poster's question, without all the indecipherable static.


okay.

watch this video. It's the best puppy no bite video on the web, or the
planet for that matter...

http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm


this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com

me wrote:
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum, and was waiting for an answer to this thread in order
to educate myself. I'm funny like that....


Anyway, In the previous "answer" to the original post, I couldn't
undertstand what the hell the poster was trying to say... Is there some
strange 'inner circle' language in this group that I'm not privy to? Seems
to me like the poster started his "answer" by yelling and screaming about
some group of unknown others and their correction methods, then chastised
the person asking the question for not having read some "miracle manual" on
dog obedience. I'm guessing that he ain't sellin' a product or service, 'cuz
if he was, he'd be livin' on peanut butter with that attitude.

Would still love to hear a clear, professional, and concise answer to the
original poster's question, without all the indecipherable static.


okay.

watch this video. It's the best puppy no bite video on the web, or the
planet for that matter...

http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm


this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com

"AuralFeast" wrote in message
...
Is my puppy normal? She's a field Golden, nine weeks old. We've had her
for
two. I've got two small children.

She tested out middle-of-the-road in temperament tests when we purchased
her.
She seemed pretty normal when interacting with her 6 siblings. She
exhibited
no aggressive or dominant behavior. She was one of the puppies that
didn't
nip.

All that's changed. The nipping is constant. Ankles, feet, fingers,
arms - it
never stops. Carry her - nipping. Pet her - nipping. Sit there and mind
your
own business - nipping. We've tried "no" commands. We've tried
ignoring
her. We've tried diversion. Nothing stops it.

She will defer to nothing, two or four-legged. Two days after we got her,
she
mounted her sister, which resulted in some nasty growling and fighting.
I've
seen her mount one of her toys. She will not respond to a "no" command -
ever.
If given a temperament test today - and I understand that she's much more
confident now - she'd clearly score as a dominant aggressive dog.

Then again, maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm overanalyzing this. Maybe
she's
just a spirited puppy. Maybe she needs training. But I know I need
advice -
my kids are at stake.

I think you are overreacting. She sounds like an overly excited retriever,
nipping is the norm until training . The mounting isn't unexpected although
I am confused - a dog or human sister? Who growled and fought? Has the
puppy learned not to mount from the growling and fighting?

I don't want a dog with agressive charastics in this house, even if they
can be
"trained" out. Any experience with any of this? I'm calling the breeder
tomorrow - any opinions this late at night?



She sounds like a normal active puppy, who needs to be trained, and needs to
be working.

"AuralFeast" wrote in message
...
Is my puppy normal? She's a field Golden, nine weeks old. We've had her
for
two. I've got two small children.

She tested out middle-of-the-road in temperament tests when we purchased
her.
She seemed pretty normal when interacting with her 6 siblings. She
exhibited
no aggressive or dominant behavior. She was one of the puppies that
didn't
nip.

All that's changed. The nipping is constant. Ankles, feet, fingers,
arms - it
never stops. Carry her - nipping. Pet her - nipping. Sit there and mind
your
own business - nipping. We've tried "no" commands. We've tried
ignoring
her. We've tried diversion. Nothing stops it.

She will defer to nothing, two or four-legged. Two days after we got her,
she
mounted her sister, which resulted in some nasty growling and fighting.
I've
seen her mount one of her toys. She will not respond to a "no" command -
ever.
If given a temperament test today - and I understand that she's much more
confident now - she'd clearly score as a dominant aggressive dog.

Then again, maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm overanalyzing this. Maybe
she's
just a spirited puppy. Maybe she needs training. But I know I need
advice -
my kids are at stake.

I think you are overreacting. She sounds like an overly excited retriever,
nipping is the norm until training . The mounting isn't unexpected although
I am confused - a dog or human sister? Who growled and fought? Has the
puppy learned not to mount from the growling and fighting?

I don't want a dog with agressive charastics in this house, even if they
can be
"trained" out. Any experience with any of this? I'm calling the breeder
tomorrow - any opinions this late at night?



She sounds like a normal active puppy, who needs to be trained, and needs to
be working.

Try flicking her on the nose every time she touches skin. O


You're joking, right? There's no ned to physically punish a 9 week old
puppy.

No, not if you mind having needle teeth in your hands.

Just like there's no need to physically punish a 9 week old child.

A 9 week old puppy is in a similar stage to a 3 year old child, not a 9 week
old child. And yes, it is sometimes appropriate to physically punish a 3
year old child.

Your puppy will associate fear and pain with playing and interacting with
you and you don't want that.

Hm. I don't think Rusty's at that point. Yes, if you overdo it, and keep
the punishment going for more than a second. But it's flick-back to
playtime. He's NOT harmed by it physically or mentally.

If it continues past 4
months, I'd start stuffing her in her crate for a "time out" whenever
teeth
touched you or your kids. But by that time, the flicking and other
unpleasantness should be over, and it shouldn't be a problem.

OK Dear Aural Feast, NEVER do this. THis way you'll NEVER get your dog
into
a crate when you need it, whether it be for using it as a bed,
transportation, at the vet's clinic, whatever. NEVER use a crate as
punishment. Rather just stop the play and interaction so the puppy sees
that
when he hurts someone, game's over and he'll have no more fun.

Yes--that's how it's being used. As a time-out place. The puppy gets put
in it's crate and ignored for a minute or two. Otherwise, you are giving
the puppy an opportunity to continue it's behavior.

THis makes me so sad. It's a shame some people think that the _only_ way
for
dog and handler to work together is dominant person and submissive dog.

You want a dog that is dominant to you? Go at it, but don't tell others
that it's appropriate or good. It isn't. Most dogs, allowed to be dominant
over their people, will resort to aggression to "maintain" peace in the
pack.

There are so many other and better combinations - like a team that takes
hasrespect and loyalty towards the other.

You can be the dominant member of the pack and still respect the dog and
give eachother support. However, it is better for the dog to be the
subordinate, for both it's own safety (biting an "intruder" will get it
euthanized, for example, or chasing said intruder off may get it hit by a
car), and your own.

~Emily


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Try flicking her on the nose every time she touches skin. O


You're joking, right? There's no ned to physically punish a 9 week old
puppy.

No, not if you mind having needle teeth in your hands.

Just like there's no need to physically punish a 9 week old child.

A 9 week old puppy is in a similar stage to a 3 year old child, not a 9 week
old child. And yes, it is sometimes appropriate to physically punish a 3
year old child.

Your puppy will associate fear and pain with playing and interacting with
you and you don't want that.

Hm. I don't think Rusty's at that point. Yes, if you overdo it, and keep
the punishment going for more than a second. But it's flick-back to
playtime. He's NOT harmed by it physically or mentally.

If it continues past 4
months, I'd start stuffing her in her crate for a "time out" whenever
teeth
touched you or your kids. But by that time, the flicking and other
unpleasantness should be over, and it shouldn't be a problem.

OK Dear Aural Feast, NEVER do this. THis way you'll NEVER get your dog
into
a crate when you need it, whether it be for using it as a bed,
transportation, at the vet's clinic, whatever. NEVER use a crate as
punishment. Rather just stop the play and interaction so the puppy sees
that
when he hurts someone, game's over and he'll have no more fun.

Yes--that's how it's being used. As a time-out place. The puppy gets put
in it's crate and ignored for a minute or two. Otherwise, you are giving
the puppy an opportunity to continue it's behavior.

THis makes me so sad. It's a shame some people think that the _only_ way
for
dog and handler to work together is dominant person and submissive dog.

You want a dog that is dominant to you? Go at it, but don't tell others
that it's appropriate or good. It isn't. Most dogs, allowed to be dominant
over their people, will resort to aggression to "maintain" peace in the
pack.

There are so many other and better combinations - like a team that takes
hasrespect and loyalty towards the other.

You can be the dominant member of the pack and still respect the dog and
give eachother support. However, it is better for the dog to be the
subordinate, for both it's own safety (biting an "intruder" will get it
euthanized, for example, or chasing said intruder off may get it hit by a
car), and your own.

~Emily


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A 9 week old puppy is in a similar stage to a 3 year old child, not a 9
week
old child. And yes, it is sometimes appropriate to physically punish a
3
year old child.



No it is not, IMO. And it is definitely never necessary.

A 9 week old puppy can walk. A 9 week old baby cannot. A 9 week old puppy
is capable of learning simple behaviors and can communicate. A 9 week old
baby can do neither. They are not the same--and comparing them is
disadvantageous to both.

Yes--that's how it's being used. As a time-out place. The puppy gets
put
in it's crate and ignored for a minute or two. Otherwise, you are
giving
the puppy an opportunity to continue it's behavior.


A time-out as PUNISHMENT should never be done in a crate if you want your
dog to feel that it's a safe place.
The pup can be ignored for a minute or two without being shoved in to a
crate.

It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and reflect
upon the fact that biting=no more play. If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.

Puppy in crate cannot mouth you or anything else. You try to ignore puppy,
so puppy starts chewing on the couch. You remove puppy from couch, and
puppy starts mouthing you (because you are now interacting with him again).

Ablsolutely not. My dog and I are a team. A great team. And she's the best
behaved dog of those I've ever had or met thankyouverymuch. All without
corporal punishment , yelling or shoving her into a crate. She enjoys her
crate and rests in it and feels safe there. She knows I'd never harm her
and
trusts me completely. It's a beautiful thing, actually.

And I have dogs that have been treated with less than 100% positive methods
that I have the same relationship with. It's not a result of a particular
method of training, but being able to time the punishment with the undesired
behavior, and the reward with the desired behavior. Regardless of which you
choose to focus on.

Again, I never said I wanted a domingant dog. I just said I think corporal
punishment is ineffective and old-fashioned.

If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't create best selling
books.

It IS effective. Very effective. But only if the rewards and punishments
are applied at the proper times. No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat
his puppy. You can reward a puppy a million times a day for not biting, but
it won't catch on until it finds out that biting=bad stuff happens, whether
that be being ignored, stuck in his crate, flicked, or tossed across the
room. I can't put him in a time-out without using his crate--the sheer fact
that he's alive is enough reward for ANY behavior in his little mind.
Besides, the cat may come along and he may be rewarded by chasing her. Or
he may come across a bit of food that one of the other pets dropped on the
floor. His crate is a place for him to reflect upon the fact that it's a
pretty boring place to be when you aren't asleep (or being fed).

Well duh. I'm in charge , and she's non-agressive. She's actually very
subordinate - out of respect and eagerness to please instead of out of
fear
. She's obedient and well behaved . But that doesn't mean that I have to
snap, pinch, yell, force or anything else. There are other and more
effective ways to train a dog.

Yes, but how would you deal with a dog that isn't subordinate? How would
you deal with a dog that consistantly looked for the opportunity to one-up
you? The dogs I choose to have in my life have a bit of dominant behavior.
I don't WANT a dog that refuses to listen because he knows better than I do,
but I want a dog that is confident in himself.

Furthermore, how do you proof a dog for competition using no-force methods?
You can teach the behaviors, but how do you ensure that the dog will respond
without rewards? I'd rather plop down my $100 and have my CD in 4 months
with a dog that knows that there is no other option than spend three years
getting the dog proofed through positive methods.

I'm not saying that positive methods are bad. I use clicker training. I
don't "punish" but correct bad behavior. Punishment, to me, is something
that extends beyond the capabilities of a dog's learning process.

But there are places where a well-timed correction can get the point across
much more efficiently than trying to reward the good behavior time after
time.

~Emily



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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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A 9 week old puppy is in a similar stage to a 3 year old child, not a 9
week
old child. And yes, it is sometimes appropriate to physically punish a
3
year old child.



No it is not, IMO. And it is definitely never necessary.

A 9 week old puppy can walk. A 9 week old baby cannot. A 9 week old puppy
is capable of learning simple behaviors and can communicate. A 9 week old
baby can do neither. They are not the same--and comparing them is
disadvantageous to both.

Yes--that's how it's being used. As a time-out place. The puppy gets
put
in it's crate and ignored for a minute or two. Otherwise, you are
giving
the puppy an opportunity to continue it's behavior.


A time-out as PUNISHMENT should never be done in a crate if you want your
dog to feel that it's a safe place.
The pup can be ignored for a minute or two without being shoved in to a
crate.

It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and reflect
upon the fact that biting=no more play. If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.

Puppy in crate cannot mouth you or anything else. You try to ignore puppy,
so puppy starts chewing on the couch. You remove puppy from couch, and
puppy starts mouthing you (because you are now interacting with him again).

Ablsolutely not. My dog and I are a team. A great team. And she's the best
behaved dog of those I've ever had or met thankyouverymuch. All without
corporal punishment , yelling or shoving her into a crate. She enjoys her
crate and rests in it and feels safe there. She knows I'd never harm her
and
trusts me completely. It's a beautiful thing, actually.

And I have dogs that have been treated with less than 100% positive methods
that I have the same relationship with. It's not a result of a particular
method of training, but being able to time the punishment with the undesired
behavior, and the reward with the desired behavior. Regardless of which you
choose to focus on.

Again, I never said I wanted a domingant dog. I just said I think corporal
punishment is ineffective and old-fashioned.

If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't create best selling
books.

It IS effective. Very effective. But only if the rewards and punishments
are applied at the proper times. No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat
his puppy. You can reward a puppy a million times a day for not biting, but
it won't catch on until it finds out that biting=bad stuff happens, whether
that be being ignored, stuck in his crate, flicked, or tossed across the
room. I can't put him in a time-out without using his crate--the sheer fact
that he's alive is enough reward for ANY behavior in his little mind.
Besides, the cat may come along and he may be rewarded by chasing her. Or
he may come across a bit of food that one of the other pets dropped on the
floor. His crate is a place for him to reflect upon the fact that it's a
pretty boring place to be when you aren't asleep (or being fed).

Well duh. I'm in charge , and she's non-agressive. She's actually very
subordinate - out of respect and eagerness to please instead of out of
fear
. She's obedient and well behaved . But that doesn't mean that I have to
snap, pinch, yell, force or anything else. There are other and more
effective ways to train a dog.

Yes, but how would you deal with a dog that isn't subordinate? How would
you deal with a dog that consistantly looked for the opportunity to one-up
you? The dogs I choose to have in my life have a bit of dominant behavior.
I don't WANT a dog that refuses to listen because he knows better than I do,
but I want a dog that is confident in himself.

Furthermore, how do you proof a dog for competition using no-force methods?
You can teach the behaviors, but how do you ensure that the dog will respond
without rewards? I'd rather plop down my $100 and have my CD in 4 months
with a dog that knows that there is no other option than spend three years
getting the dog proofed through positive methods.

I'm not saying that positive methods are bad. I use clicker training. I
don't "punish" but correct bad behavior. Punishment, to me, is something
that extends beyond the capabilities of a dog's learning process.

But there are places where a well-timed correction can get the point across
much more efficiently than trying to reward the good behavior time after
time.

~Emily



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.510 / Virus Database: 307 - Release Date: 8/14/2003

A 9 week old puppy can walk. A 9 week old baby cannot. A 9 week old
puppy
is capable of learning simple behaviors and can communicate. A 9 week old
baby can do neither. They are not the same--and comparing them is
disadvantageous to both.

OK - so let's compare it to a 3 year old or even a 4 or 5 year old. It' snot
necessary, nor beneficial to physically punish them either, IMO.



It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and
reflect
upon the fact that biting=no more play.
A puppy doesn't lie there and reflect. As soon as the play is over he'll
have realized what happened. 30 seconds later he has no clue and he's
definitely not lying there "reflecting".

If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.

No, because you're not part of it anymore.


~~ snip snip ~~

And I have dogs that have been treated with less than 100% positive
methods
that I have the same relationship with. It's not a result of a particular
method of training, but being able to time the punishment with the
undesired
behavior, and the reward with the desired behavior. Regardless of which
you
choose to focus on.

You are right. But I think we just disagree what is appropriate
"punishment".
And it's dangerous to tell a first time puppy owner to try to teach physical
punishment. An unexperienced dog owner is likely to time "punishment" wrong
and it will work against all purposes.

~~snip~~
If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't create best selling
books.


Kohler wrote his books more than 40 years ago. Things have happened since
then.


It IS effective. Very effective.

It sure as heck is if you want your dog to obey you out of fear rather than
devotion and respect. Or if your timing's bad and you create a
fear-agressive dog.

But only if the rewards and punishments
are applied at the proper times.

Agree, again, but we disagree what is appropriate punishment . To me turning
away, a firm "no" or "ah ah" and stop the fun activity is more than enough.

No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat
his puppy.

You did tell him to flick it's nose... and shove it in a crate.

You can reward a puppy a million times a day for not biting, but
it won't catch on until it finds out that biting=bad stuff happens,
whether
that be being ignored,

=OK IMO

stuck in his crate,
not OK IMO

flicked,
Not OK

or tossed across the
room.

Definitely WRONG.

I can't put him in a time-out without using his crate--the sheer fact
that he's alive is enough reward for ANY behavior in his little mind.
Besides, the cat may come along and he may be rewarded by chasing her. Or
he may come across a bit of food that one of the other pets dropped on the
floor. His crate is a place for him to reflect upon the fact that it's a
pretty boring place to be when you aren't asleep (or being fed).


But here you make it clear that it has to be a lengthy time-out. A yound pup
doesn't need that.
When the fun stops the punishment is set.
He's not gonna go to his room and "think about what he's done" or anything!
~~snip~~

Yes, but how would you deal with a dog that isn't subordinate? How would
you deal with a dog that consistantly looked for the opportunity to one-up
you? The dogs I choose to have in my life have a bit of dominant
behavior.
I don't WANT a dog that refuses to listen because he knows better than I
do,
but I want a dog that is confident in himself.


By rewarding desired behavior and "punishing " (your word, not mine) by
stopping a fun activity or a firm voice. Only in extreme cases would I use
physical force, and DEFINITELY not with a 9 week old puppy.



Furthermore, how do you proof a dog for competition using no-force
methods?

Same thing. And we train both agility and herding. Funny thing is she knows
more about herding than I do...

You can teach the behaviors, but how do you ensure that the dog will
respond
without rewards?

Because a dog with the relationship I wish to form and that I have wit my
current dog ensures that's she's eager to please me and my recognition is
her reward. Plus she gets used to working harder and performing more
difficult tasks before expecting a reward. It becomes a habit.

I'd rather plop down my $100 and have my CD in 4 months
with a dog that knows that there is no other option than spend three years
getting the dog proofed through positive methods.


So you'd rather have a quick fix than anything else... ok with me.

I'm not saying that positive methods are bad. I use clicker training. I
don't "punish" but correct bad behavior. Punishment, to me, is something
that extends beyond the capabilities of a dog's learning process.

But there are places where a well-timed correction can get the point
across
much more efficiently than trying to reward the good behavior time after
time.


That's true enough, but not with a 9 week old puppy!

~Emily


Kate