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reliable vs. 99% reliable



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 12th 03, 11:47 PM
Chris
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Default reliable vs. 99% reliable

A retired protection-dog trainer comes in evenings and spends hours
working with our PBs. (He's interesting; 5 years ago, underwent a
'conversion' to 100% positive.) We only have 2 PBs left, btw, but he
won't release them for adoption, yet. 3 months is his goal.
Last night, he said something about Gus about whom I posted ad nauseum
a few days ago. Smiling Gus responds instantly to 'sit', 'stay', and
'down.' "Shouldn't have trained him," he said. "A trained biter is
more dangerous than an untrained biter."
I keep turning that comment over in my mind. He's laconic, so I
didn't ask him to elaborate. I almost see what he means. An obviously
out of control dog sends signals that warn people to avoid it. A trained
(semi-trained? trained, but not socialized?) dog doesn't. I've turned
the implications of that over in my mind until it froze.
Comment, so I can start thinking again.
(Glancing up, I see I titled this about 'reliability'. Not sure where
that fits in, now. Not sure, at this moment, what 'training' means.)



















  #2  
Old November 13th 03, 12:09 AM
Suja
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Posts: n/a
Default

Chris wrote:

Last night, he said something about Gus about whom I posted ad nauseum
a few days ago. Smiling Gus responds instantly to 'sit', 'stay', and
'down.' "Shouldn't have trained him," he said. "A trained biter is
more dangerous than an untrained biter."


I can't see where he's coming from. This makes no sense whatsoever to me.

I keep turning that comment over in my mind. He's laconic, so I
didn't ask him to elaborate. I almost see what he means. An obviously
out of control dog sends signals that warn people to avoid it. A trained
(semi-trained? trained, but not socialized?) dog doesn't.


This isn't about training. It is about Gus not exhibiting whatever we
consider to be "normal" body language for a dog who is feeling
threatened (or whatever Gus's problem might be). He goes from acting
completely relaxed to putting his teeth on people, with no steps in
between (no stiffening, growling, showing teeth, etc.). Why would the
fact that he knows how to 'sit' on command have any bearing on this?

Just thought of something. You think it is possible that Gus has been
actively corrected against giving that sort of warning? I know plenty
of people who don't want their dogs growling, showing teeth etc. and
attempt to correct them for it.

Suja

  #3  
Old November 13th 03, 12:09 AM
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Chris wrote:

Last night, he said something about Gus about whom I posted ad nauseum
a few days ago. Smiling Gus responds instantly to 'sit', 'stay', and
'down.' "Shouldn't have trained him," he said. "A trained biter is
more dangerous than an untrained biter."


I can't see where he's coming from. This makes no sense whatsoever to me.

I keep turning that comment over in my mind. He's laconic, so I
didn't ask him to elaborate. I almost see what he means. An obviously
out of control dog sends signals that warn people to avoid it. A trained
(semi-trained? trained, but not socialized?) dog doesn't.


This isn't about training. It is about Gus not exhibiting whatever we
consider to be "normal" body language for a dog who is feeling
threatened (or whatever Gus's problem might be). He goes from acting
completely relaxed to putting his teeth on people, with no steps in
between (no stiffening, growling, showing teeth, etc.). Why would the
fact that he knows how to 'sit' on command have any bearing on this?

Just thought of something. You think it is possible that Gus has been
actively corrected against giving that sort of warning? I know plenty
of people who don't want their dogs growling, showing teeth etc. and
attempt to correct them for it.

Suja

  #4  
Old November 13th 03, 12:09 AM
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Chris wrote:

Last night, he said something about Gus about whom I posted ad nauseum
a few days ago. Smiling Gus responds instantly to 'sit', 'stay', and
'down.' "Shouldn't have trained him," he said. "A trained biter is
more dangerous than an untrained biter."


I can't see where he's coming from. This makes no sense whatsoever to me.

I keep turning that comment over in my mind. He's laconic, so I
didn't ask him to elaborate. I almost see what he means. An obviously
out of control dog sends signals that warn people to avoid it. A trained
(semi-trained? trained, but not socialized?) dog doesn't.


This isn't about training. It is about Gus not exhibiting whatever we
consider to be "normal" body language for a dog who is feeling
threatened (or whatever Gus's problem might be). He goes from acting
completely relaxed to putting his teeth on people, with no steps in
between (no stiffening, growling, showing teeth, etc.). Why would the
fact that he knows how to 'sit' on command have any bearing on this?

Just thought of something. You think it is possible that Gus has been
actively corrected against giving that sort of warning? I know plenty
of people who don't want their dogs growling, showing teeth etc. and
attempt to correct them for it.

Suja

  #5  
Old November 13th 03, 12:09 AM
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Chris wrote:

Last night, he said something about Gus about whom I posted ad nauseum
a few days ago. Smiling Gus responds instantly to 'sit', 'stay', and
'down.' "Shouldn't have trained him," he said. "A trained biter is
more dangerous than an untrained biter."


I can't see where he's coming from. This makes no sense whatsoever to me.

I keep turning that comment over in my mind. He's laconic, so I
didn't ask him to elaborate. I almost see what he means. An obviously
out of control dog sends signals that warn people to avoid it. A trained
(semi-trained? trained, but not socialized?) dog doesn't.


This isn't about training. It is about Gus not exhibiting whatever we
consider to be "normal" body language for a dog who is feeling
threatened (or whatever Gus's problem might be). He goes from acting
completely relaxed to putting his teeth on people, with no steps in
between (no stiffening, growling, showing teeth, etc.). Why would the
fact that he knows how to 'sit' on command have any bearing on this?

Just thought of something. You think it is possible that Gus has been
actively corrected against giving that sort of warning? I know plenty
of people who don't want their dogs growling, showing teeth etc. and
attempt to correct them for it.

Suja

  #6  
Old November 13th 03, 01:56 AM
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You think it is possible that Gus has
been actively corrected against giving
that sort of warning? I know plenty of
people who don't want their dogs
growling, showing teeth etc. and
attempt to correct them for it.
Suja

That's a most interesting speculation. Gonna see if anyone knows.
There's guilt about Gus, because he didn't exhibit the behavior until
returning from the vet after his final surgery.
One volunteer took him, visited him, and brought him back. I'll see
if she has any glimmer of what might have happened during that time.
Thanks for the observation, Sija.



















  #7  
Old November 13th 03, 01:56 AM
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You think it is possible that Gus has
been actively corrected against giving
that sort of warning? I know plenty of
people who don't want their dogs
growling, showing teeth etc. and
attempt to correct them for it.
Suja

That's a most interesting speculation. Gonna see if anyone knows.
There's guilt about Gus, because he didn't exhibit the behavior until
returning from the vet after his final surgery.
One volunteer took him, visited him, and brought him back. I'll see
if she has any glimmer of what might have happened during that time.
Thanks for the observation, Sija.



















  #8  
Old November 13th 03, 01:56 AM
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You think it is possible that Gus has
been actively corrected against giving
that sort of warning? I know plenty of
people who don't want their dogs
growling, showing teeth etc. and
attempt to correct them for it.
Suja

That's a most interesting speculation. Gonna see if anyone knows.
There's guilt about Gus, because he didn't exhibit the behavior until
returning from the vet after his final surgery.
One volunteer took him, visited him, and brought him back. I'll see
if she has any glimmer of what might have happened during that time.
Thanks for the observation, Sija.



















  #9  
Old November 13th 03, 01:56 AM
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You think it is possible that Gus has
been actively corrected against giving
that sort of warning? I know plenty of
people who don't want their dogs
growling, showing teeth etc. and
attempt to correct them for it.
Suja

That's a most interesting speculation. Gonna see if anyone knows.
There's guilt about Gus, because he didn't exhibit the behavior until
returning from the vet after his final surgery.
One volunteer took him, visited him, and brought him back. I'll see
if she has any glimmer of what might have happened during that time.
Thanks for the observation, Sija.



















  #10  
Old November 13th 03, 02:23 AM
Tricia9999
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Posts: n/a
Default

Smiling Gus responds instantly to 'sit', 'stay', and
'down.' "Shouldn't have trained him," he said. "A trained biter is
more dangerous than an untrained biter."


Some people, and I have been one of those, mistake trainability for a sound
temperament. Many seem to think that if a dog can be trained to do all the
basic obedience stuff, they won't have any problems or issues. But the two
issues are separate and distinct. People may let their guard down with a dog
that is easily trained and get bitten. They may be shocked because the dog "was
so well trained".
 




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