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Vitamin B-12



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 31st 03, 09:59 PM
Marshall Dermer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vitamin B-12

It looks like this is the right value:

which reads as .02 mg/ kg of body weight per day. Max weighs about 8 kg so
he should consume about .16 mg/day.

http://members.tripod.com/~WINWOOD_S...Nutrition.html


for it is replicated he

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfood.htm


--Marshall
  #2  
Old July 31st 03, 09:59 PM
Marshall Dermer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It looks like this is the right value:

which reads as .02 mg/ kg of body weight per day. Max weighs about 8 kg so
he should consume about .16 mg/day.

http://members.tripod.com/~WINWOOD_S...Nutrition.html


for it is replicated he

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfood.htm


--Marshall
  #3  
Old August 1st 03, 05:24 PM
Marshall Dermer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article link.net "buglady" writes:
"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
...

}} I'm trying to figure out how much Vitamin B-12 to give Max daily. He is
}} on a vegitarian diet.
}
}I think there must be confusion somewhere about the terms:
}ug is microgram - also indicated as mcg
}mg is milligram
}
}....If Max weighs about 8 kg he should get 4 mcg (micrograms) B12 per day.
}It's water soluble, so unless you grossly overdose there shouldn't be a
}problem.

Yes, thanks! The units are wrong in my edition of Strombeck's Table 5.2.

}
}Adapted from NRC Nutrient Req of Dogs, 1985
}B12 - 0.5 micrograms/kg BW or 0.7 micrograms per 100 kcal of metabolizable
}energy or 1.6 micrograms per megajoules
}Whole text from above available free online at National Academy Press:
}http://www.nap.edu/catalog/15.html There's apparently a new combo dog/cat
}version coming out in 2003, but may not be available free.
}
}AAFCO Nutrient profiles for adult dog food (1999)
}22 micrograms/kg dry food (presumes an energy density of 3.5 kcal ME/g dry
}matter) or 0.6 micrograms per 100 kcal food or 1.5 micrograms per MJ
}
}Canadian Vet Med Assn standards for adult dog food (1993)
}....same as AAFCO
}
}Work from H. Meyer (German) who has published whole texts on nutrition for
}animals:
}Recommendations for daily nutrient intake of adult dogs
}0.5 micrograms/kg body weight
}
}.......Better idea is to consult a compounding pharmacy and have them make a
}vit for Max. I'd be worried about lack of iron myself. Liver is full of
}both iron and B vits.
}
}not that you'll read this, but maybe someone else can use the info
}buglady

Well, I did read your post! Thanks.

Max is on a black-eyed pea /brown rice diet plus bone meal, KCl, NaCl,
olive oil, and 1/10 of a vitamin for humans/day.

I don't think iron is a problem but B-12 is--was.

--Marshall
  #4  
Old August 1st 03, 05:24 PM
Marshall Dermer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article link.net "buglady" writes:
"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
...

}} I'm trying to figure out how much Vitamin B-12 to give Max daily. He is
}} on a vegitarian diet.
}
}I think there must be confusion somewhere about the terms:
}ug is microgram - also indicated as mcg
}mg is milligram
}
}....If Max weighs about 8 kg he should get 4 mcg (micrograms) B12 per day.
}It's water soluble, so unless you grossly overdose there shouldn't be a
}problem.

Yes, thanks! The units are wrong in my edition of Strombeck's Table 5.2.

}
}Adapted from NRC Nutrient Req of Dogs, 1985
}B12 - 0.5 micrograms/kg BW or 0.7 micrograms per 100 kcal of metabolizable
}energy or 1.6 micrograms per megajoules
}Whole text from above available free online at National Academy Press:
}http://www.nap.edu/catalog/15.html There's apparently a new combo dog/cat
}version coming out in 2003, but may not be available free.
}
}AAFCO Nutrient profiles for adult dog food (1999)
}22 micrograms/kg dry food (presumes an energy density of 3.5 kcal ME/g dry
}matter) or 0.6 micrograms per 100 kcal food or 1.5 micrograms per MJ
}
}Canadian Vet Med Assn standards for adult dog food (1993)
}....same as AAFCO
}
}Work from H. Meyer (German) who has published whole texts on nutrition for
}animals:
}Recommendations for daily nutrient intake of adult dogs
}0.5 micrograms/kg body weight
}
}.......Better idea is to consult a compounding pharmacy and have them make a
}vit for Max. I'd be worried about lack of iron myself. Liver is full of
}both iron and B vits.
}
}not that you'll read this, but maybe someone else can use the info
}buglady

Well, I did read your post! Thanks.

Max is on a black-eyed pea /brown rice diet plus bone meal, KCl, NaCl,
olive oil, and 1/10 of a vitamin for humans/day.

I don't think iron is a problem but B-12 is--was.

--Marshall
  #5  
Old August 1st 03, 05:48 PM
buglady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
...
Max is on a black-eyed pea /brown rice diet plus bone meal, KCl, NaCl,
olive oil, and 1/10 of a vitamin for humans/day.

I don't think iron is a problem but B-12 is--was.


WRT this table: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfood.htm
The amounts listed are for kg of FOOD on a Dry Matter (DM) basis, not per kg
BW (body weight) of dog. It would be much easier to go to the NAP site and
print off the table from NRC, which lists necessary components based on the
body weight of the animal. Otherwise since you're feeding wet food, you'd
have to convert it to a DM basis before you could calculate what you need.

........Iron might be a problem unless you're feeding some foods high in
iron, or adding some greens like parsley. Perhaps the multivitamin will
cover it, but I doubt this vitamin has amino acids in it.

I'd be really concerned about lack of the amino acids taurine, L-carnitine,
arginine, methionine that are present in meat and not in vegetables. This
is why meat is a perfect component of food for dogs - it has a good amino
acid profile appropriate to the species.

From SMall Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Edition:
Vegan foods should be carefully checked because they may be deficient in
arginine, lysine, methionine, tryptophan, taurine, iron, calcium, zinc, Vit
A and some B vitamins.

Need for taurine in dogs which is synthesized from methionine and cysteine::
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAH/U...2_Taurine.html
http://www.ygrr.org/doginfo/health-heartcondition.html
http://www.ivillage.com/pets/expert/...0_271824,00.ht
ml
Taurine is destroyed by heat. They are now calling it conditionally
essential for dogs.

Personally I think anyone recommending a vegan diet for cats should be shot,
but these people know that veg/grain/legumes does not have sufficient
essential amino
acid profile to keep dogs/cats alive: http://happypets.addr.com/vegpets.htm
Other sites discussing vegan pet food:
http://www.canoe.ca/Health0001/09_linton.html
http://www.geocities.com/lucivilleke...egetarians.htm

Lack of methionine in the role of formation of gallstones in canines:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...PubMed&list_ui
ds=8769978&dopt=Abstract

Good educational module on nutrition for dogs/cats from SpeedyVet:
http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningcentre/index1.htm

You can go here and look up the amino acid content of foods. Note that
since taurine is not an essential AA for humans, they do not list it, but it
is present in meat, particularly heart and brain/eyeballs of prey animals:
Nutrient Database for foods:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...SR15/sr15.html

.......Personally I'd contact a compounding pharmacy and ask them to make a
multivitamin/AA supplement for you. Essential fatty acids might not be a
bad idea either. I hope at least you're adding some fat to this diet as
dogs need fat.

buglady
take out the dog before replying






  #6  
Old August 1st 03, 05:48 PM
buglady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
...
Max is on a black-eyed pea /brown rice diet plus bone meal, KCl, NaCl,
olive oil, and 1/10 of a vitamin for humans/day.

I don't think iron is a problem but B-12 is--was.


WRT this table: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfood.htm
The amounts listed are for kg of FOOD on a Dry Matter (DM) basis, not per kg
BW (body weight) of dog. It would be much easier to go to the NAP site and
print off the table from NRC, which lists necessary components based on the
body weight of the animal. Otherwise since you're feeding wet food, you'd
have to convert it to a DM basis before you could calculate what you need.

........Iron might be a problem unless you're feeding some foods high in
iron, or adding some greens like parsley. Perhaps the multivitamin will
cover it, but I doubt this vitamin has amino acids in it.

I'd be really concerned about lack of the amino acids taurine, L-carnitine,
arginine, methionine that are present in meat and not in vegetables. This
is why meat is a perfect component of food for dogs - it has a good amino
acid profile appropriate to the species.

From SMall Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Edition:
Vegan foods should be carefully checked because they may be deficient in
arginine, lysine, methionine, tryptophan, taurine, iron, calcium, zinc, Vit
A and some B vitamins.

Need for taurine in dogs which is synthesized from methionine and cysteine::
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAH/U...2_Taurine.html
http://www.ygrr.org/doginfo/health-heartcondition.html
http://www.ivillage.com/pets/expert/...0_271824,00.ht
ml
Taurine is destroyed by heat. They are now calling it conditionally
essential for dogs.

Personally I think anyone recommending a vegan diet for cats should be shot,
but these people know that veg/grain/legumes does not have sufficient
essential amino
acid profile to keep dogs/cats alive: http://happypets.addr.com/vegpets.htm
Other sites discussing vegan pet food:
http://www.canoe.ca/Health0001/09_linton.html
http://www.geocities.com/lucivilleke...egetarians.htm

Lack of methionine in the role of formation of gallstones in canines:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...PubMed&list_ui
ds=8769978&dopt=Abstract

Good educational module on nutrition for dogs/cats from SpeedyVet:
http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningcentre/index1.htm

You can go here and look up the amino acid content of foods. Note that
since taurine is not an essential AA for humans, they do not list it, but it
is present in meat, particularly heart and brain/eyeballs of prey animals:
Nutrient Database for foods:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...SR15/sr15.html

.......Personally I'd contact a compounding pharmacy and ask them to make a
multivitamin/AA supplement for you. Essential fatty acids might not be a
bad idea either. I hope at least you're adding some fat to this diet as
dogs need fat.

buglady
take out the dog before replying






  #7  
Old August 1st 03, 08:01 PM
Marshall Dermer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article nk.net "buglady" writes:
}"Marshall Dermer" } wrote in message
...
}} Max is on a black-eyed pea /brown rice diet plus bone meal, KCl, NaCl,
}} olive oil, and 1/10 of a vitamin for humans/day.
}}
}} I don't think iron is a problem but B-12 is--}was.
}
}WRT this table: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfood.htm
}The amounts listed are for kg of FOOD on a Dry Matter (DM) basis, not per kg
}BW (body weight) of dog. It would be much easier to go to the NAP site and
}print off the table from NRC, which lists necessary components based on the
}body weight of the animal. Otherwise since you're feeding wet food, you'd
}have to convert it to a DM basis before you could calculate what you need.

What is NAP and where is the site?

}
}.......Iron might be a problem unless you're feeding some foods high in
}iron, or adding some greens like parsley. Perhaps the multivitamin will
}cover it, but I doubt this vitamin has amino acids in it.

I would think that that the foods I descibed above are high in iron.


}I'd be really concerned about lack of the amino acids taurine, L-carnitine,
}arginine, methionine that are present in meat and not in vegetables. This
}is why meat is a perfect component of food for dogs - it has a good amino
}acid profile appropriate to the species.

My dog has had calcium oxalate uroliths and is supposed to be on a low
protein, low oxalate, alkaline diet.

Thanks,

--Marshall

}
}From SMall Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Edition:
}Vegan foods should be carefully checked because they may be deficient in
}arginine, lysine, methionine, tryptophan, taurine, iron, calcium, zinc, Vit
}A and some B vitamins.
}
}Need for taurine in dogs which is synthesized from methionine and cysteine::
}http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAH/U...2_Taurine.html
}http://www.ygrr.org/doginfo/health-heartcondition.html
}http://www.ivillage.com/pets/expert/...0_271824,00.ht
}ml
}Taurine is destroyed by heat. They are now calling it conditionally
}essential for dogs.
}
}Personally I think anyone recommending a vegan diet for cats should be shot,
}but these people know that veg/grain/legumes does not have sufficient
}essential amino
}acid profile to keep dogs/cats alive: http://happypets.addr.com/vegpets.htm
}Other sites discussing vegan pet food:
}http://www.canoe.ca/Health0001/09_linton.html
}http://www.geocities.com/lucivilleke...egetarians.htm
}
}Lack of methionine in the role of formation of gallstones in canines:
}http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...PubMed&list_ui
}ds=8769978&dopt=Abstract
}
}Good educational module on nutrition for dogs/cats from SpeedyVet:
}http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningcentre/index1.htm
}
}You can go here and look up the amino acid content of foods. Note that
}since taurine is not an essential AA for humans, they do not list it, but it
}is present in meat, particularly heart and brain/eyeballs of prey animals:
}Nutrient Database for foods:
}http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...SR15/sr15.html
}
}......Personally I'd contact a compounding pharmacy and ask them to make a
}multivitamin/AA supplement for you. Essential fatty acids might not be a
}bad idea either. I hope at least you're adding some fat to this diet as
}dogs need fat.
}
}buglady
}take out the dog before replying
}
}
}
}
}
}


  #8  
Old August 1st 03, 08:01 PM
Marshall Dermer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article nk.net "buglady" writes:
}"Marshall Dermer" } wrote in message
...
}} Max is on a black-eyed pea /brown rice diet plus bone meal, KCl, NaCl,
}} olive oil, and 1/10 of a vitamin for humans/day.
}}
}} I don't think iron is a problem but B-12 is--}was.
}
}WRT this table: http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petfood.htm
}The amounts listed are for kg of FOOD on a Dry Matter (DM) basis, not per kg
}BW (body weight) of dog. It would be much easier to go to the NAP site and
}print off the table from NRC, which lists necessary components based on the
}body weight of the animal. Otherwise since you're feeding wet food, you'd
}have to convert it to a DM basis before you could calculate what you need.

What is NAP and where is the site?

}
}.......Iron might be a problem unless you're feeding some foods high in
}iron, or adding some greens like parsley. Perhaps the multivitamin will
}cover it, but I doubt this vitamin has amino acids in it.

I would think that that the foods I descibed above are high in iron.


}I'd be really concerned about lack of the amino acids taurine, L-carnitine,
}arginine, methionine that are present in meat and not in vegetables. This
}is why meat is a perfect component of food for dogs - it has a good amino
}acid profile appropriate to the species.

My dog has had calcium oxalate uroliths and is supposed to be on a low
protein, low oxalate, alkaline diet.

Thanks,

--Marshall

}
}From SMall Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Edition:
}Vegan foods should be carefully checked because they may be deficient in
}arginine, lysine, methionine, tryptophan, taurine, iron, calcium, zinc, Vit
}A and some B vitamins.
}
}Need for taurine in dogs which is synthesized from methionine and cysteine::
}http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAH/U...2_Taurine.html
}http://www.ygrr.org/doginfo/health-heartcondition.html
}http://www.ivillage.com/pets/expert/...0_271824,00.ht
}ml
}Taurine is destroyed by heat. They are now calling it conditionally
}essential for dogs.
}
}Personally I think anyone recommending a vegan diet for cats should be shot,
}but these people know that veg/grain/legumes does not have sufficient
}essential amino
}acid profile to keep dogs/cats alive: http://happypets.addr.com/vegpets.htm
}Other sites discussing vegan pet food:
}http://www.canoe.ca/Health0001/09_linton.html
}http://www.geocities.com/lucivilleke...egetarians.htm
}
}Lack of methionine in the role of formation of gallstones in canines:
}http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...PubMed&list_ui
}ds=8769978&dopt=Abstract
}
}Good educational module on nutrition for dogs/cats from SpeedyVet:
}http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningcentre/index1.htm
}
}You can go here and look up the amino acid content of foods. Note that
}since taurine is not an essential AA for humans, they do not list it, but it
}is present in meat, particularly heart and brain/eyeballs of prey animals:
}Nutrient Database for foods:
}http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...SR15/sr15.html
}
}......Personally I'd contact a compounding pharmacy and ask them to make a
}multivitamin/AA supplement for you. Essential fatty acids might not be a
}bad idea either. I hope at least you're adding some fat to this diet as
}dogs need fat.
}
}buglady
}take out the dog before replying
}
}
}
}
}
}


  #9  
Old August 2nd 03, 11:22 AM
buglady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
...
In article nk.net

"buglady" writes:

What is NAP and where is the site?

.........See my original post.

}.......Iron might be a problem unless you're feeding some foods high in
}iron, or adding some greens like parsley. Perhaps the multivitamin will
}cover it, but I doubt this vitamin has amino acids in it.

I would think that that the foods I descibed above are high in iron.


............But do you know for sure? Check the USDA Nutrient Database to
make sure.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...SR15/sr15.html

}I'd be really concerned about lack of the amino acids taurine,

L-carnitine,
}arginine, methionine that are present in meat and not in vegetables.

This
}is why meat is a perfect component of food for dogs - it has a good amino
}acid profile appropriate to the species.

My dog has had calcium oxalate uroliths and is supposed to be on a low
protein, low oxalate, alkaline diet.


......Yes, but low protein doesn't necessarily mean vegetarian. If you are
doing a vegan diet (no eggs either???), you must be careful. And you'd
definiately need to supplement some amino acids. If you've been feeding
low protein and/or vegan diet for a while, it might be the source of the
bile sludge problems.

.......Perhaps you could email this woman, who managed to dissolve calcium
oxalate stones in her dogs: http://www.lesliebean.net/petnutrition.html I
don't have the faintest idea of what the diet is.

.........This is not necessarily new news, but a good population of certain
GI bacterial flora can help with calcium oxalate problems. Has your dog
been on antibiotics? Does he get to play in the dirt? This may not so much
be a problem with dogs, but cats whose feet never touch the ground and have
rounds of antibiotics may not get re-exposed to these organisms:
http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/
http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/News.html
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin....2003.00634.x/
abs/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...PubMed&list_ui
ds=12678863&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...PubMed&list_ui
ds=10541258&dopt=Abstract
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=124017

Speedyvet on functional foods:
http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningcen...functional.htm

buglady
take out the dog before replying



  #10  
Old August 2nd 03, 11:22 AM
buglady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Marshall Dermer" wrote in message
...
In article nk.net

"buglady" writes:

What is NAP and where is the site?

.........See my original post.

}.......Iron might be a problem unless you're feeding some foods high in
}iron, or adding some greens like parsley. Perhaps the multivitamin will
}cover it, but I doubt this vitamin has amino acids in it.

I would think that that the foods I descibed above are high in iron.


............But do you know for sure? Check the USDA Nutrient Database to
make sure.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...SR15/sr15.html

}I'd be really concerned about lack of the amino acids taurine,

L-carnitine,
}arginine, methionine that are present in meat and not in vegetables.

This
}is why meat is a perfect component of food for dogs - it has a good amino
}acid profile appropriate to the species.

My dog has had calcium oxalate uroliths and is supposed to be on a low
protein, low oxalate, alkaline diet.


......Yes, but low protein doesn't necessarily mean vegetarian. If you are
doing a vegan diet (no eggs either???), you must be careful. And you'd
definiately need to supplement some amino acids. If you've been feeding
low protein and/or vegan diet for a while, it might be the source of the
bile sludge problems.

.......Perhaps you could email this woman, who managed to dissolve calcium
oxalate stones in her dogs: http://www.lesliebean.net/petnutrition.html I
don't have the faintest idea of what the diet is.

.........This is not necessarily new news, but a good population of certain
GI bacterial flora can help with calcium oxalate problems. Has your dog
been on antibiotics? Does he get to play in the dirt? This may not so much
be a problem with dogs, but cats whose feet never touch the ground and have
rounds of antibiotics may not get re-exposed to these organisms:
http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/
http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/News.html
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin....2003.00634.x/
abs/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...PubMed&list_ui
ds=12678863&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...PubMed&list_ui
ds=10541258&dopt=Abstract
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=124017

Speedyvet on functional foods:
http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningcen...functional.htm

buglady
take out the dog before replying



 




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