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Operant Conditioning vs. Pavlovian Conditioning



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 15th 03, 07:41 PM
Leah
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Default Operant Conditioning vs. Pavlovian Conditioning

I just started Jean Donaldson's "Dogs Are From Neptune," and was a bit
surprised at what I read. I think I remember Marshall saying he was going to
take a break from the ng, but I hope he's here to comment on this.

For dogs with generalized fears, i.e., of men, she recommends Pavlovian
(classical?) conditioning. When men appear, the treats and praise come out -
no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar
closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression.

I normally have the treats and praise stop when the dog acts out, and instead
try to refocus the dog on me.

Can we start a discussion on this? I'm very interested to hear what you guys
think. I'm sure the choice between methods must depend on the individual dog
and the individual circumstances, but I'd like to hear the pros and cons of
both methods.

There is one dog in a basic class, a young Aussie named Mocha, who occasionally
acts out at dogs near her. I've not been able to pinpoint the trigger (she's
only been to two classes so far), because otherwise she displays friendly,
though wary, interest. She's 6 months old and was not socialized. I can
refocus her on a dime by simply saying her name in a high, cheery voice, and
then asking her for a behavior. I'll have to watch her more carefully - my
guess is that she may be acting out whenever food appears. If so, maybe dog
close by should = open bar. But I also don't want to reinforce the acting out.

This is a tough one, because there are 10 dogs in the class. I can't always
keep my eye on one.

Bubbles, the shih tzu, is the only small dog in this class. Last week she was
very frightened of all the dogs and people, and we couldn't even get a sit out
of her. I asked mom to bring her to puppy play-time, and she did. By the end
of the session, she was playing with the other dogs and visiting the people
(she was fearful of strangers prior).

This week, with the confidence she gained in puppy play, she won the quickest
sit contest! :}

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  #2  
Old December 15th 03, 08:06 PM
shelly
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Default

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Leah wrote:

For dogs with generalized fears, i.e., of men, she recommends
Pavlovian (classical?) conditioning. When men appear, the
treats and praise come out - no matter what behavior the dog
is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even
if the dog is displaying aggression.

I normally have the treats and praise stop when the dog acts
out, and instead try to refocus the dog on me.

Can we start a discussion on this? I'm very interested to
hear what you guys think. I'm sure the choice between
methods must depend on the individual dog and the individual
circumstances, but I'd like to hear the pros and cons of both
methods.


this was described in pretty good detail by Lynn K. awhile
back (the thread was "Prong Collar Review"). i came away from
the discussion with the understanding that behavior
modification, which is what i think you're describing, is a
matter of changing the dog's hard-wiring. it's not a matter
of rewarding the dog for a certain behavior, but a matter of
building new associations. Melanie has described the process
in pretty thorough detail on numerous occasions, but
unfortunately doesn't archive her posts.

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
  #3  
Old December 15th 03, 08:06 PM
shelly
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Leah wrote:

For dogs with generalized fears, i.e., of men, she recommends
Pavlovian (classical?) conditioning. When men appear, the
treats and praise come out - no matter what behavior the dog
is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even
if the dog is displaying aggression.

I normally have the treats and praise stop when the dog acts
out, and instead try to refocus the dog on me.

Can we start a discussion on this? I'm very interested to
hear what you guys think. I'm sure the choice between
methods must depend on the individual dog and the individual
circumstances, but I'd like to hear the pros and cons of both
methods.


this was described in pretty good detail by Lynn K. awhile
back (the thread was "Prong Collar Review"). i came away from
the discussion with the understanding that behavior
modification, which is what i think you're describing, is a
matter of changing the dog's hard-wiring. it's not a matter
of rewarding the dog for a certain behavior, but a matter of
building new associations. Melanie has described the process
in pretty thorough detail on numerous occasions, but
unfortunately doesn't archive her posts.

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
  #4  
Old December 15th 03, 08:06 PM
shelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Leah wrote:

For dogs with generalized fears, i.e., of men, she recommends
Pavlovian (classical?) conditioning. When men appear, the
treats and praise come out - no matter what behavior the dog
is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even
if the dog is displaying aggression.

I normally have the treats and praise stop when the dog acts
out, and instead try to refocus the dog on me.

Can we start a discussion on this? I'm very interested to
hear what you guys think. I'm sure the choice between
methods must depend on the individual dog and the individual
circumstances, but I'd like to hear the pros and cons of both
methods.


this was described in pretty good detail by Lynn K. awhile
back (the thread was "Prong Collar Review"). i came away from
the discussion with the understanding that behavior
modification, which is what i think you're describing, is a
matter of changing the dog's hard-wiring. it's not a matter
of rewarding the dog for a certain behavior, but a matter of
building new associations. Melanie has described the process
in pretty thorough detail on numerous occasions, but
unfortunately doesn't archive her posts.

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
  #5  
Old December 15th 03, 11:46 PM
C. L.
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Default

Well in reply to the subject and not neccessarily the content, Classical
Conditioning, that which Pavlov developed, the behavior is not voluntary.
Drooling over food is not something the dog can control. Skinner developed
operant conditioning, which is basically the same idea but now with
voluntary behaviors.

That has nothing to do with what you asked, but since I have no good advice
on it I won't butt in.


  #6  
Old December 15th 03, 11:46 PM
C. L.
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Default

Well in reply to the subject and not neccessarily the content, Classical
Conditioning, that which Pavlov developed, the behavior is not voluntary.
Drooling over food is not something the dog can control. Skinner developed
operant conditioning, which is basically the same idea but now with
voluntary behaviors.

That has nothing to do with what you asked, but since I have no good advice
on it I won't butt in.


  #7  
Old December 15th 03, 11:46 PM
C. L.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well in reply to the subject and not neccessarily the content, Classical
Conditioning, that which Pavlov developed, the behavior is not voluntary.
Drooling over food is not something the dog can control. Skinner developed
operant conditioning, which is basically the same idea but now with
voluntary behaviors.

That has nothing to do with what you asked, but since I have no good advice
on it I won't butt in.


  #8  
Old December 16th 03, 12:48 AM
Tricia9999
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Default

When men appear, the treats and praise come out -
no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar
closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression.


I sort of doubt this. If you know the dog is aggressive when the man is within
5 feet, you work on 10, 8, 6 feet for a long time - you wait until the dog is
truly happy to see the guy at 6 feet before you move to 5 feet. After all, if
you wait til the dog displays aggression, you won't have a dog partaking of the
bar - too much stress and adrenalin to care about the bar. You've pushed it too
far.
  #9  
Old December 16th 03, 12:48 AM
Tricia9999
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

When men appear, the treats and praise come out -
no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar
closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression.


I sort of doubt this. If you know the dog is aggressive when the man is within
5 feet, you work on 10, 8, 6 feet for a long time - you wait until the dog is
truly happy to see the guy at 6 feet before you move to 5 feet. After all, if
you wait til the dog displays aggression, you won't have a dog partaking of the
bar - too much stress and adrenalin to care about the bar. You've pushed it too
far.
  #10  
Old December 16th 03, 12:48 AM
Tricia9999
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

When men appear, the treats and praise come out -
no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar
closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression.


I sort of doubt this. If you know the dog is aggressive when the man is within
5 feet, you work on 10, 8, 6 feet for a long time - you wait until the dog is
truly happy to see the guy at 6 feet before you move to 5 feet. After all, if
you wait til the dog displays aggression, you won't have a dog partaking of the
bar - too much stress and adrenalin to care about the bar. You've pushed it too
far.
 




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