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#1
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Operant Conditioning vs. Pavlovian Conditioning
I just started Jean Donaldson's "Dogs Are From Neptune," and was a bit
surprised at what I read. I think I remember Marshall saying he was going to take a break from the ng, but I hope he's here to comment on this. For dogs with generalized fears, i.e., of men, she recommends Pavlovian (classical?) conditioning. When men appear, the treats and praise come out - no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression. I normally have the treats and praise stop when the dog acts out, and instead try to refocus the dog on me. Can we start a discussion on this? I'm very interested to hear what you guys think. I'm sure the choice between methods must depend on the individual dog and the individual circumstances, but I'd like to hear the pros and cons of both methods. There is one dog in a basic class, a young Aussie named Mocha, who occasionally acts out at dogs near her. I've not been able to pinpoint the trigger (she's only been to two classes so far), because otherwise she displays friendly, though wary, interest. She's 6 months old and was not socialized. I can refocus her on a dime by simply saying her name in a high, cheery voice, and then asking her for a behavior. I'll have to watch her more carefully - my guess is that she may be acting out whenever food appears. If so, maybe dog close by should = open bar. But I also don't want to reinforce the acting out. This is a tough one, because there are 10 dogs in the class. I can't always keep my eye on one. Bubbles, the shih tzu, is the only small dog in this class. Last week she was very frightened of all the dogs and people, and we couldn't even get a sit out of her. I asked mom to bring her to puppy play-time, and she did. By the end of the session, she was playing with the other dogs and visiting the people (she was fearful of strangers prior). This week, with the confidence she gained in puppy play, she won the quickest sit contest! :} PetsMart Pet Trainer My Kids, My Students, My Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m. |
#2
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On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Leah wrote:
For dogs with generalized fears, i.e., of men, she recommends Pavlovian (classical?) conditioning. When men appear, the treats and praise come out - no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression. I normally have the treats and praise stop when the dog acts out, and instead try to refocus the dog on me. Can we start a discussion on this? I'm very interested to hear what you guys think. I'm sure the choice between methods must depend on the individual dog and the individual circumstances, but I'd like to hear the pros and cons of both methods. this was described in pretty good detail by Lynn K. awhile back (the thread was "Prong Collar Review"). i came away from the discussion with the understanding that behavior modification, which is what i think you're describing, is a matter of changing the dog's hard-wiring. it's not a matter of rewarding the dog for a certain behavior, but a matter of building new associations. Melanie has described the process in pretty thorough detail on numerous occasions, but unfortunately doesn't archive her posts. -- shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette |
#3
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On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Leah wrote:
For dogs with generalized fears, i.e., of men, she recommends Pavlovian (classical?) conditioning. When men appear, the treats and praise come out - no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression. I normally have the treats and praise stop when the dog acts out, and instead try to refocus the dog on me. Can we start a discussion on this? I'm very interested to hear what you guys think. I'm sure the choice between methods must depend on the individual dog and the individual circumstances, but I'd like to hear the pros and cons of both methods. this was described in pretty good detail by Lynn K. awhile back (the thread was "Prong Collar Review"). i came away from the discussion with the understanding that behavior modification, which is what i think you're describing, is a matter of changing the dog's hard-wiring. it's not a matter of rewarding the dog for a certain behavior, but a matter of building new associations. Melanie has described the process in pretty thorough detail on numerous occasions, but unfortunately doesn't archive her posts. -- shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette |
#4
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On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Leah wrote:
For dogs with generalized fears, i.e., of men, she recommends Pavlovian (classical?) conditioning. When men appear, the treats and praise come out - no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression. I normally have the treats and praise stop when the dog acts out, and instead try to refocus the dog on me. Can we start a discussion on this? I'm very interested to hear what you guys think. I'm sure the choice between methods must depend on the individual dog and the individual circumstances, but I'd like to hear the pros and cons of both methods. this was described in pretty good detail by Lynn K. awhile back (the thread was "Prong Collar Review"). i came away from the discussion with the understanding that behavior modification, which is what i think you're describing, is a matter of changing the dog's hard-wiring. it's not a matter of rewarding the dog for a certain behavior, but a matter of building new associations. Melanie has described the process in pretty thorough detail on numerous occasions, but unfortunately doesn't archive her posts. -- shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette |
#5
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Well in reply to the subject and not neccessarily the content, Classical
Conditioning, that which Pavlov developed, the behavior is not voluntary. Drooling over food is not something the dog can control. Skinner developed operant conditioning, which is basically the same idea but now with voluntary behaviors. That has nothing to do with what you asked, but since I have no good advice on it I won't butt in. |
#6
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Well in reply to the subject and not neccessarily the content, Classical
Conditioning, that which Pavlov developed, the behavior is not voluntary. Drooling over food is not something the dog can control. Skinner developed operant conditioning, which is basically the same idea but now with voluntary behaviors. That has nothing to do with what you asked, but since I have no good advice on it I won't butt in. |
#7
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Well in reply to the subject and not neccessarily the content, Classical
Conditioning, that which Pavlov developed, the behavior is not voluntary. Drooling over food is not something the dog can control. Skinner developed operant conditioning, which is basically the same idea but now with voluntary behaviors. That has nothing to do with what you asked, but since I have no good advice on it I won't butt in. |
#8
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When men appear, the treats and praise come out -
no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression. I sort of doubt this. If you know the dog is aggressive when the man is within 5 feet, you work on 10, 8, 6 feet for a long time - you wait until the dog is truly happy to see the guy at 6 feet before you move to 5 feet. After all, if you wait til the dog displays aggression, you won't have a dog partaking of the bar - too much stress and adrenalin to care about the bar. You've pushed it too far. |
#9
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When men appear, the treats and praise come out -
no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression. I sort of doubt this. If you know the dog is aggressive when the man is within 5 feet, you work on 10, 8, 6 feet for a long time - you wait until the dog is truly happy to see the guy at 6 feet before you move to 5 feet. After all, if you wait til the dog displays aggression, you won't have a dog partaking of the bar - too much stress and adrenalin to care about the bar. You've pushed it too far. |
#10
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When men appear, the treats and praise come out -
no matter what behavior the dog is displaying. Men = open bar. No men = bar closes. Even if the dog is displaying aggression. I sort of doubt this. If you know the dog is aggressive when the man is within 5 feet, you work on 10, 8, 6 feet for a long time - you wait until the dog is truly happy to see the guy at 6 feet before you move to 5 feet. After all, if you wait til the dog displays aggression, you won't have a dog partaking of the bar - too much stress and adrenalin to care about the bar. You've pushed it too far. |
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